Viking Drakkar by Balclutha75 - Amati - 1:50 - First Ever Wooden Model

[Louie da fly]

18 hours ago, Balclutha75 said:

that you can recognize sarcasm when you see it.

Not sarcasm, surely - that would be unworthy of you. I think irony "the expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect" is a more accurate description.

 

Regarding the planking - Yes I think steaming would be wrong - that way madness lies.

 

On first inspection, perhaps you could loosely clamp the planking to each frame and gradually move the planking inward bit by bit. Starting with the planks nearest the keel - add a dab of slow-drying glue (white glue - PVA - for preference) between those planks and the frames. Clamp them loosely to the frames, not too tight when you first put them on, then as you would with the wheel nuts when you're putting a wheel back on the car - go round them again tightening each one a little until they're all a bit tighter, then do it again till they're all a little tighter - until the planks are all fully in contact with the frames (or as close as you can manage).

 

Once the glue is fully dry, move the clamps outward - loosely clamp to the frames all the planks that are a bit further from the keel (adding a dab of glue first), going round and round the same way, tightening them all a little bit each time. And then move outward from the keel again, until all your planks are nice and tight to the frames. This would need adjustable clamps, of course - G-clamps or something similar.

 

I can't guarantee this would work, but the planks look thin and flexible enough that you might have a good chance of success if you take it gradually and spread the load evenly by clamping to all the frames.

 

The only alternative I can think of is to follow your skipper's advice -  chucking it away and starting again. (I note that James H's last post is from 2018!) But it would be a shame to do so after all your work  if there's any chance this model can be fixed.

 

Worth a try? Have a think about it and see what you want to do. It's your build and your decision. And the very best of success with it!

 

[Edit - As I'm sure you're aware, Matt H has successfully completed an Amati Drakkar just recently - 

but he didn't seem to have any issues of this sort. However, you might be able to get some help from him to see if he encountered the ame problem [/Edit]

 

 

[Balclutha75]

 Thanks for the comments , much appreciated.

 

cathead and liteflight, I've noted your logs, seen that I'm not the only one with this kind of problem, and trust you guys will come up with a good solution.

 

Louie, yes irony is more accurate, as of course no harm was meant or implied,

 

I think I understand what you are saying as a fix, and I do have a couple of small metal C-clamps. But I'm reasonably sure the frame will crack if I attempt that without somehow softening the hull. It's a lot stiffer than I thought it might be.

 

I've considered just continuing as is, winding up with a new length to beam ratio, then shimming the frames and extending the deck area. But the shields would look terrible hanging at that angle, though I could leave them off and consider it a cargo boat. No doubt in the real world that craft's seaworthiness would be compromised, which I might not care about for a shelf model.

 

But I'm leaning towards the Skipper's solution and some small business for Ages of Sail.

 

Then I can use this one for practice: staining, painting, shaping the mast, dying and sewing the sail, tying the rigging. Every step of that will be something new for me, and no doubt I'll get something else wrong. I could construct a better keel jig and a Jack Aubrey style frame alignment tool. Part of the apprentice journey I suppose, even at seventy-mumble!

 

 

19 hours ago, md1400cs said:

Finally your update --  now I can finally get a good night's rest

 

By the way, md1400cs, that was funny.

 

Thanks again.

 

- Nelson

[Matt H]

18 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

 

 

[Edit - As I'm sure you're aware, Matt H has successfully completed an Amati Drakkar just recently - but he didn't seem to have any issues of this sort. However, you might be able to get some help from him to see if he encountered the same problem [/Edit]

 

 

Thanks Louie!

 

If I recall, I did have that problem, but I believe the instructions said that as you got higher in the planking, you should cut partway through the plank horizontally along the length of the plank. Not along the entire plank but rather the middle section up to about 3 bulkheads from the bow and stern. Cutting partway through from the outside of the plank allows the plank to fold and the bottom half lies on the plank below it, and the top half is able to be folded up against the bulkhead.

 

I just checked the instructions and this is demonstrated in figure 12 on page 3.

 

If you look closely you may see that slice and fold/bend in my photos.

[Louie da fly]

7 hours ago, Balclutha75 said:

the shields would look terrible hanging at that angle, though I could leave them off and consider it a cargo boat.

To be honest, I doubt that warships were in the habit of hanging the shields on the sides unless for battle or display (and I have my doubts about battle - where would you rather have your shield - on the side of the ship or in your hand?). I think they would interfere with the efficient sailing of the ship, not to mention the likelihood of falling out of their "socket" into the sea in rough weather.

 

7 hours ago, Balclutha75 said:

I'm leaning towards the Skipper's solution and some small business for Ages of Sail.

 

Then I can use this one for practice: staining, painting, shaping the mast, dying and sewing the sail, tying the rigging. Every step of that will be something new for me,

 

It might end up being the best solution. Use this one to get experience solving the problems, which you then apply to the new one.

 

43 minutes ago, Matt H said:

as you got higher in the planking, you should cut partway through the plank horizontally along the length of the plank.

 

A little hard to see from the photos, Matt. Do you mean that you shave the bottom of the planks thinner than at the top, so they taper down to about half the thickness at the bottom?

 

Oh, and no relation to James H? You have the same surname 

[Matt H]

33 minutes ago, Louie da fly said:

A little hard to see from the photos, Matt. Do you mean that you shave the bottom of the planks thinner than at the top, so they taper down to about half the thickness at the bottom?

 

Oh, and no relation to James H? You have the same surname 

You're right the photos weren't very good so I snapped this one and the instructions.

 

Here the number 1 is pointing to the seam where I cut partway through the plank so it could be folded along the cut. The number 2 indicates where the bottom edge of the plank is. Hope these help, the pictures portion of the instructions are in Italian, and a separate instruction sheet is printed in English.

 

**Edit - Nope, no relation to James J as far as I am aware!

[Louie da fly]

Ok. Clear as mud. 

[Balclutha75]

 

Matt and Louie, thanks so much for spending time on this. I have seen Matt's excellent log, and he even answered a question for me about a step that I'm not even close to yet. 🙂

 

I did see the instruction about scoring the wood, but I was worried that I'd break the plank if I attempted that, especially after the step above where they recommended soaking the wood in a 50/50 glue solution first. But clearly that's something I'll have to experiment with and should have tried that on some scrap pieces before forging ahead.

 

Matt, thanks for that clarifying photo as I had not noticed it previously. Much appreciated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Balclutha75]

3 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

To be honest, I doubt that warships were in the habit of hanging the shields on the sides unless for battle or display (and I have my doubts about battle - where would you rather have your shield - on the side of the ship or in your hand?). I think they would interfere with the efficient sailing of the ship, not to mention the likelihood of falling out of their "socket" into the sea in rough weather.

 

That all sounds pretty reasonable, but they will (hopefully) look cool on a calm bookshelf. 😀

[Louie da fly]

45 minutes ago, Balclutha75 said:

That all sounds pretty reasonable, but they will (hopefully) look cool on a calm bookshelf.

 

Oh, yes. No argument about that! If you want to see how good it can look, see the completed model at

 

[Balclutha75]

Thanks Louie, and I’ve really enjoyed all the Viking history stuff you have posted on various logs. Glad you survived the Battle of Hastings!

[Cathead]

That instruction seems practical in a purely model-building sort of way, but rather problematic from a realism point of view. Odd that the model is designed for that to be the only way builders could get the planks to follow the hull's curve when the real thing managed without. Or am I missing something?

[Balclutha75]

1 hour ago, Cathead said:

when the real thing managed without. Or am I missing something?

I wondered the same thing.

 

If you look at the photo of the instructions Matt posted above, Fig 15, "Planking Courses Compacted" according to my translation, you really can't see why scoring was necessary. And in fact, here is a build log from Mike Dowling where he says "I felt no need to cut along the strakes, as suggested in step 12 of the instructions". And later he notes, "the bow and stern the steps on the frames are of no use at all. It was impossible (for me, at least) to lay the strakes against the frames. I ended by fairing the the frames and erasing the steps."

 

I also struggled with those frames at bow and stern, as I think you are as well Eric. The steps were only useful to me as a position guideline.

 

Well, I decided to order another kit from Ages of Sail, perhaps a first round defeat, but it makes sense for me.

 

 

[Cathead]

On 9/27/2020 at 10:53 AM, Balclutha75 said:

Well, I decided to order another kit from Ages of Sail, perhaps a first round defeat, but it makes sense for me

Whatever happened? Have you started the new kit, or still fiddling with this one? Interested minds want to know!

[Balclutha75]

Cathead, thanks for checking in, much appreciated! The answer to new kit or fiddling with the old one is: both of the above! I did get a new kit and have been s.l.o.w.l.y moving forward on it. There have been some screw ups, but I'm up to the sheer strake now. There still exists the problem of that strake having moved away from the frame no matter what I tried.  It's better than the first attempt and I am forging ahead with a possible solution that I think will look OK. The jury is still out.

 

My plan has been to get the hull completed to a point where I'm satisfied, and then start a new build log with a few entries catching up to the current work. With luck that could be in a few weeks. I purchased a pack of #8 sewing sequin pins and will experiment with adding rivets. I have the original kit for experimentation.

 

Bottom line: still at it and still having fun, even contemplating what the next kit might be.

 

I lurk around here several times a week and have been keeping an eye on your ship, which is looking great. Hope the rough times in your life have eased off a bit. Your deck is looking nice as are the crew members, not to mention that bottle of mead! I have a 28mm Lagertha figure on order to keep my Captain Aegir in check. He gets impatient with my progress.

 

Thanks again.

 

 

[Larry Cowden]

On 9/26/2020 at 9:50 PM, Balclutha75 said:

 

That all sounds pretty reasonable, but they will (hopefully) look cool on a calm bookshelf. 😀

Consider this. If the Viking ship was sighted in time approaching an enemy shore, they could be subjected to volley after volley of arrows by the defenders. You can't row with your shield in your lap in front of you. If You angled your approach to shore, the shields can protect the rowers until the boat landed. So mounting the shields as shown makes sense.

[Balclutha75]

Larry, thanks for that. There  are quite a few discussions here in various Viking ship build logs (binho, liteflight, Jack P, Matt H, among others come to mind, hope I have those right). Questions about if and when the shields might have been mounted. As I recall, your explanation is a good one.

 

Louie da Fly, a Viking expert here, has posted quite a few good links to shield information. I can easily dig those up if you have not seen them. (No pun intended on "dig those up".)

 

One problem with some of the kits apparently, perhaps even mine, is that as designed the kit would prohibit rowing with the shields mounted.

[bigpetr]

This kit seems to have the shield rack attached right, so shields do not prohibit rowing, same as at the original ship. But some ships, like Skuldelev 5 has shield rack attached in a way that prohibited rowing:

 

[Larry Cowden]

On 9/26/2020 at 7:15 PM, Louie da fly said:

To be honest, I doubt that warships were in the habit of hanging the shields on the sides unless for battle or display (and I have my doubts about battle - where would you rather have your shield - on the side of the ship or in your hand?). I think they would interfere with the efficient sailing of the ship, not to mention the likelihood of falling out of their "socket" into the sea in rough weather.

 

 

It might end up being the best solution. Use this one to get experience solving the problems, which you then apply to the new one.

 

 

A little hard to see from the photos, Matt. Do you mean that you shave the bottom of the planks thinner than at the top, so they taper down to about half the thickness at the bottom?

 

Oh, and no relation to James H? You have the same surname 

Refer to this site https://www.ancient-origins.net/history-ancient-traditions/viking-weapons-0013794  Read the story on the Vikings and their weapons. It provides historical basis for shields on the sides of their ships.

[Larry Cowden]

On 1/4/2021 at 3:11 PM, Balclutha75 said:

Larry, thanks for that. There  are quite a few discussions here in various Viking ship build logs (binho, liteflight, Jack P, Matt H, among others come to mind, hope I have those right). Questions about if and when the shields might have been mounted. As I recall, your explanation is a good one.

 

Louie da Fly, a Viking expert here, has posted quite a few good links to shield information. I can easily dig those up if you have not seen them. (No pun intended on "dig those up".)

 

One problem with some of the kits apparently, perhaps even mine, is that as designed the kit would prohibit rowing with the shields mounted.

Here is a link for you. https://www.ancient-origins.net/history-ancient-traditions/viking-weapons-0013794  Refer to the story of the Vikings and their weapons. It also provides historical basis for shields and their location.

[Louie da fly]

4 hours ago, Larry Cowden said:

Refer to this site https://www.ancient-origins.net/history-ancient-traditions/viking-weapons-0013794  Read the story on the Vikings and their weapons. It provides historical basis for shields on the sides of their ships.

 

Thanks for the link, Larry. However, I'm afraid much of this article is fairly shallow, and a fair bit of it is wrong. (That it uses footage from the horribly inaccurate TV show "The Vikings" is also a point against it. That really isn't what Vikings looked like and the author should know it.) 

 

The quote from the link "Special fastening points were developed that allowed the shields to be fixed along the boat’s edges." - no problem with that part. But "This protected the crew from any projectile weapons from the shores, but also made for an efficient wind and wave break." is speculation with no real proof.

 

There's no evidence that the shields were used to protect against archery from the shores (though it's an interesting idea and by no means impossible - absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence).

 

I'd also take issue with the idea that shields would act as a wind or wave break - in my opinion they'd be quite likely to be dislodged by any sort of a decent sea. I haven't studied the pavesade (shield rack) on Viking ships in any detail, so I can't say this with any great confidence, but that's the way it seems to me. Round shields are pretty open to acting like a sail and they'd have to be tied on pretty securely not to be blown away or swept away by waves. It would be interesting to find out whether anybody's ever tried it out in heavy seas with a replica Viking ship - there are enough of them around.

 

I spent 20 years as a Viking period re-enactor and got heavily into the historical basis for this stuff. The Viking weapons, except perhaps the two-handed axe, were no different from those of the cultures they warred against. Their main advantages were surprise and mobility, appearing out of nowhere and attacking before a proper defence could be assembled. In set-piece battles - one army against another -  against, say, the Anglo-Saxons, they lost about as often as they won.

 

 

Steven 

 

[Balclutha75]

18 hours ago, bigpetr said:

This kit seems to have the shield rack attached right, so shields do not prohibit rowing,

Thanks bigpetr, of course I have to get the holes drilled in the correct location when I get to that step!

 

The discussion on shields and other details of Viking customs is fascinating, thanks guys. The lack of solid evidence in certain cases would, it seems, allow some leeway for a novice modeler to chose personal aesthetic appeal over complete historical accuracy, since the latter may not exist.

 

Here is another article, which I probably originally found on MSW:

http://www.hurstwic.com/history/articles/manufacturing/text/norse_ships.htm

 

which says:  "The crew's shields may have been arrayed along the gunwales, held in place by a shield rack outboard of the ship. This kept them out of the way, but also provided some slight additional protection against wind and waves.",

 

... and "Perhaps shields were displayed only for battle, or to make the ship look especially fine when approaching land. Landnámabók (S.156) tells of Hella-Björn Herfinnsson who sailed into Bjarnarfjörður with his ship lined with shields. Afterwards, he was called Skjalda-Björn (Shield-Björn)."

 

Note they hedge their bets with words like "may" and "perhaps". Personally I think in a heavy sea the shields would not be much use, perhaps (there's that word)  even be a hindrance. As Louie says, it would be interesting to see if it's been tried on a replica. Lining them up for display or intimidation does make sense to me.

[bigpetr]

Viking ship replica sailor and maintainer told me, that bigger waves can even broke the shileds in rack.

 

When there is no archeological evidence I go with my logic, or better by experience of viking replica sailors, to make it practical and usable.

 

But aesthetic solutions are also tempting, it will be display model after all :).

Edited January 6, 2021 by bigpetr

[Larry Cowden]

17 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

 

Thanks for the link, Larry. However, I'm afraid much of this article is fairly shallow, and a fair bit of it is wrong. (That it uses footage from the horribly inaccurate TV show "The Vikings" is also a point against it. That really isn't what Vikings looked like and the author should know it.) 

 

The quote from the link "Special fastening points were developed that allowed the shields to be fixed along the boat’s edges." - no problem with that part. But "This protected the crew from any projectile weapons from the shores, but also made for an efficient wind and wave break." is speculation with no real proof.

 

There's no evidence that the shields were used to protect against archery from the shores (though it's an interesting idea and by no means impossible - absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence).

 

I'd also take issue with the idea that shields would act as a wind or wave break - in my opinion they'd be quite likely to be dislodged by any sort of a decent sea. I haven't studied the pavesade (shield rack) on Viking ships in any detail, so I can't say this with any great confidence, but that's the way it seems to me. Round shields are pretty open to acting like a sail and they'd have to be tied on pretty securely not to be blown away or swept away by waves. It would be interesting to find out whether anybody's ever tried it out in heavy seas with a replica Viking ship - there are enough of them around.

 

I spent 20 years as a Viking period re-enactor and got heavily into the historical basis for this stuff. The Viking weapons, except perhaps the two-handed axe, were no different from those of the cultures they warred against. Their main advantages were surprise and mobility, appearing out of nowhere and attacking before a proper defence could be assembled. In set-piece battles - one army against another -  against, say, the Anglo-Saxons, they lost about as often as they won.

 

 

Steven 

 

Good analysis. But it would seem to be a regular routine when preparing for a sea voyage that the shields most certainly would be lashed down firmly to the rail. I'm a 21 year Navy veteran with service on submarines and surface ships. And on a surface ship shields like these most certainly could protect the crew from wind and waves to some extent given their otherwise open deck arrangement. I have been through many really severe storms at sea and I can tell you that if things are not lashed down properly, people and equipment suffer damages and injuries. I did 10 years historical reenacting from F&I through Fur Trade. As for weapons, that is for a different debate. 

[Cathead]

Larry, there were other ways to stow the shields for a voyage than lashing them to the rail. I'm with Steven, shields in that position would seem more hindrance than help in most normal operation. Also keep in mind that Viking shields were not actually that strong; they were thin wood held together by a single brace in the middle and generally a leather (not metal) rim. They were designed to absorb impact, not live forever. So it seems to me that the horizontal forces of wind or waves levering on one of these thin shields, partly wedged in a shield rack or otherwise lashed on, would more likely lead to the shield breaking. And I'd guess that the Vikings cared more about having intact shields upon reaching their destination than getting a bit wetter and colder than they already were. The few references I know of to shields being set up this way tends to imply it being done for show rather than for function.

[Louie da fly]

Though the Gokstad ship's shields didn't have them, there's a fair bit of evidence that shields of the period also had the face covered with leather, which added strength and rigidity. Then the leather rim was sewn on through holes in the circumference of the shield-board. But I just can't see it being likely they would have put them in place if they were going to encounter any kind of weather (or waves, for that matter).

 

Steven