How similar is the shared rigging design on a regular and topsail schooner (given similar age, origin, size)?

[Tim Holt]

As a preface, I've been gathering various references for 2 masted schooner rigging to better understand how my lowly AL Swift/Virginia Pilot Boat 1805 would be rigged if real.  I also realize rigging depends a lot on the size, the year, the country of design origin, etc.

 

I've yet to find a good solid rigging reference matching the ship, which I believe you'd call a 2 masted gaff-rigged schooner(?)  but I've found some reasonably similar designs with clear overlap in rigging.  Designs from same country, approximate year and size.

 

And to my subject line question, I want to know if I can (or should) selectively take these shared similarities in a design, and use them as reference.

 

For example Lennarth Petersson's Rigging Period Fore-And-Aft Craft seems an oft-sited reference, and it has an American Schooner section based on Experiment, built in 1808.   Clearly nothing related to square rigging applies, nor extended jibboom and a few other differences.   Plus it's larger so a heavier fore & main stay, additional shrouds, etc.   But then the drawings of the fore and main throat & peak halliards plus vangs seem reasonable, and common to both regular and topsail schooners.

 

Thoughts?

Edited August 9, 2021 by Tim Holt

[Roger Pellett]

Tim,

 

American Pilot vessel were specialized in both hull form and rig.

 

First of all, except for a brief time c1830’s when intense competition required long offshore voyages to secure work, they did not set square sails.

 

Second,  in addition to the pilots, boats were manned by boat keepers, often apprentices.  When the pilots had been placed aboard incoming vessels, the one or two boat keepers were expected to sail the boats home, so the rig was kept simple with the little running led to a point where it could be handled while the boat keeper manned the helm.

 

Third, these were the sports cars of their era; small, fast, and often short lived.  As such, they were ideal platforms for builders to try out new ideas. For example, they were often rigged without standing rigging; shrouds or stays.

 

In the early 1800’s, before there was a US Navy to enforce American territorial rights, the Royal Navy often operated in the lower Chesapeake Bay.  An officer by the name of George Tobin painted a series of pictures of Virginia Pilot Boats.  Here’s one that I posted a while ago but illustrates my points.

 

[Tim Holt]

1 hour ago, Roger Pellett said:

First of all, except for a brief time c1830’s when intense competition required long offshore voyages to secure work, they did not set square sails.

 

That I assumed, yes.  I wasn't referencing square rigging in terms of using it - only that the reference I mentioned had it, but that it wasn't applicable.  I want to stick with basic gaff schooner rigging, no square.  Keep the masts and other things as they are as much as possible.

 

And interesting in terms of the crew size RE: sailing back, etc.

 

Really I'm just trying to make my crappy little old kit have some realism rather than just building it by the instruction book.  Lots of things seem (and are) big shortcuts, and I'd like to understand what the correct approach would be.  I doubt for example a stay is just a rope strung between two eyes.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Tim Holt

[Tim Holt]

1 hour ago, Roger Pellett said:

ideal platforms for builders to try out new ideas

 And that very well may be just what I do I guess.  I mean I did rewire my MG Midget with a new custom-made harness, setup the LED headlights with relays, plus replace all other bubs with LEDs...

 

 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Tim Holt

[Roger Pellett]

If you did that, and it worked 😁, you can certainly rig this boat!

 

Roger

[Tim Holt]

8 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

If you did that, and it worked 😁, you can certainly rig this boat!

 

Roger

Hehe no fires yet

[Tim Holt]

11 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

If you did that, and it worked 😁, you can certainly rig this boat!

 

Roger

She's not caught on fire or gone dark on me yet

[Dr PR]

Tim,

 

I have been studying schooner rigging for the last year or two, and have posted what I have learned here:

 

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/25679-topsail-schooner-sail-plans-and-rigging/?do=findComment&comment=750865

 

The thread also includes discussions of the most common reference books for ship and schooner rigging.

 

Although I am working on a topsail schooner model, it seems to me that the rigging is the same for the gaff sails on a fore-and-aft only schooner as on the topsail schooner. The only difference seems to be the addition of the square sails and their rigging to the normal fore-and-aft sail rig.

 

I have posted a spreadsheet to calculate masting and rigging diameters for schooners.  It includes the dimension calculations from some standard reference works for square riggers and schooners.

 

The big difference between schooners and square riggers is the mast diameters. Because the schooner rig is much lighter the masts are thinner and different calculations are used for mast dimensions. Schooner masts carrying some square sails may be a bit larger diameter than the ordinary fore-and-af sail masts. Once you have the mast dimensions - the diameter at the partners (deck) the calculations for rope sizes are the same as for square riggers.

 

One thing I have learned in my research is that there is no single "normal" or "standard" way to rig a schooner. If it can be done you can be sure it has been tried at some time. There is a tremendous range of variations in schooner sail configurations and rigging - at least a dozen ways to rig a gaff topsail! American built schooners often carried more extreme sail plans and rigging than the European counterparts, and pilot boats were no exception. There was serious competition between indiviual harbor pilots - they were paid by the job - and they raced out of port to meet incoming vessels. Pilot boats were built for speed.

[catopower]

Actually, I wouldn't refer to the Model Shipways Katy kit as a crappy little old kit. To my recollection, it's one of the better researched kits around. It may not have all the glamour of the bigger ships, but those instruction don't need much modification. In fact, I knew the designer of that kit, and he seemed to know his stuff.

 

I even keep a copy of the instructions and plans on my shelf. I also keep a copy of the instructions he wrote for his kit of the fictional privateer the Lively. It's so well written and detailed that I used it to help me rig a model of the American revenue cutter Dallas, so many years ago.

 

As for Petersen's Fore-And-Aft Craft book, I have it, but I'm not a fan. I don't think much of his choice of examples for a schooner – a ship type which is so important. The others are probably okay, but I don't know them as well as schooners.

 

I think if you study that instruction booklet for the Katy, and build the model without skimping on details, you'll have a very accurate model. Not glamorous, but accurate.

 

On 8/9/2021 at 7:48 PM, Tim Holt said:

 

I doubt for example a stay is just a rope strung between two eyes.

 

It's an interesting point, but I don't see that as an error. It may be just as likely that the builders would save the expense of the iron bands and eyebolt and just seize the stays around the masts. Only thing is that there is nothing to keep them from sliding out of position, so I'd think the eyebolts/bands make more sense.

 

 

 

[Tim Holt]

17 hours ago, catopower said:

Actually, I wouldn't refer to the Model Shipways Katy kit as a crappy little old kit

 

I'm building the AL Swift Virginia Pilot Boat 1805 kit - one of the original versions from 1980's. 

 

I've seen several pictures of the Katy plans and indeed they seem far more detailed than what I have.  I've considered it as a reference, and would love to get a copy of the instructions and plans to use as a reference (instructions PDF is online).  

 

I have a Model Shipways Flying Fish kit also from the 1980's, and the level of detail in the plans and instruction book are really quite amazing.  I like how they show multiple ways to build various things, from the realistic but difficult to the simpler.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Tim Holt

[Tim Holt]

17 hours ago, Dr PR said:

I have been studying schooner rigging for the last year or two, and have posted what I have learned here

 

Indeed I've referenced it quite a bit!  If not for the complications of COVID I'd offer to buy you a beverage in exchange for picking your brain a bit.  I am also in Corvallis.

[catopower]

Hi Tim,

 

Sorry, I missed the part about you building the AL Swift kit. That was one of my earliest builds too. 

 

It was actually the third one I'd completed, with the intent of doing up all the small details, including replacing the wood for the deck planking and replacing the forward deck house with a simple grating. Before I built the schooner Lively, I'd considered just beefing up the rig of the Swift and adding a pivot gun in place of the forward deck house to convert it to an early War of 1812 privateer. That's basically all that the Lively was supposed to represent.

 

I would normally suggest you just buy a copy of the Katy plans from ME, to protect their intellectual property. But, I can't seem to find it on their site. So, if you PM me your address, I'll just send you mine. It just sits on the shelf now anyways!

 

[Tim Holt]

12 hours ago, catopower said:

if you PM me your address, I'll just send you mine

 

Thanks, I appreciate the offer!  I've been reading through the manual for the Katy again, and feel like I can glean a fair amount from just the manual.

Sounds like I've gone down a similar path with a willingness to redo the deck layout.  I've removed the forward deck house, and replaced it with a grating and forward stack at this point.  In fact a lot like the Katy forward deck layout.

 

One thing I can see in various pilot boat designs is that they have a very minimal bulwark - something that Chappelle's books refer to as a "log bulwark".  I've been a bit tempted to carve down the bulwark height on the kit, but I also think I should just leave well enough alone at some point

[catopower]

The Katy manual is very good. I checked the current manual and it's pretty much the same as the old manual I have by Jim Roberts. When he developed the Lively, he did the same thing in regards to the line sizes, blocks sizes, what's siezed, what's served, etc.

 

I personally think it's the most detailed I've seen, which I suppose you can do with such a simple rig. That may be why I got so interested in these early schooners, and the pilot boat type in general.

 

46 minutes ago, Tim Holt said:

One thing I can see in various pilot boat designs is that they have a very minimal bulwark - something that Chappelle's books refer to as a "log bulwark".  I've been a bit

tempted to carve down the bulwark height on the kit, but I also think I should just leave well enough alone at some point

 

But, it would certainly make for an interesting modification to a very popular kit.

 

In any case, this is an ideal kit to try out various upgrades. I actually think that all Artesania Latina kits are pretty well like that, as they go together very cleanly, and are easy to build. It's easy to change a little here and there to suit your needs. It's also nice to end up building a kit that looks different from all the other kits. Good chance to develop scale accurate details, sail making, etc.

 

And yes, I think it's better to finish the model than mess TOO much with "improvements". Sometimes, that hard to do – I know I have that problem! 

 

Good Luck!