Sizing of Eyes & Rings related to Gun Breech & Train Tackle

[jayaero1]

Hopefully someone has the answer here.   I know that most kits make do with one or two sizes of rings and eyes for all situations so I'm hesitant to just take their word.   Per the images below, can anyone advise what the Diameters and section thickness of both the Eyes and the Rings would be for the 5 different positions (A-E) indicated?  

 

Thanks in advance!

[allanyed]

Welcome to MSW Jay,   As this was your first post it would be nice if you posted a little introduction on the new members page.

Questioning plans from most  kits is a good idea, and based on the drawings you posted, well founded.

 

What ship and year?  Can you share where these plans come from?  The reason I ask is that there appear several errors in the drawings. 

 

There looks to be pairs of double blocks for the training tackle and running out tackle which is not correct for a Bromefield 32 pounder.  For 32 pounders there would be a single and double.  For lesser calibers there would be two singles.  (Caruana The History of English Ordnance p386)

 

The breech did not attach to the ring as shown.  This appears to be a Bromefield gun so for that era, the breeching line would secure to the ring with a half hitch and then the tail would be seized to the standing part.  (Caruana The History of English Ordnance p.384)

 

I have never seen bolts in the knees but I don't know if this was actually done at times. Maybe someone else here at MSW can verify if they only secured into the bulwarks or at times went into the knees.

 

Goodwin provides a chart for the carriages of various sizes of ringbolts and eyebolts on page 217 of The Construction and Fitting of the English Ship of War.  For your 32 pounder:   

For a LONG 32 pounder he gives the following

                  RING BOLT                                                               EYEBOLTS

Bolt diameter      Ring internal diameter              Bolt diameter      Ring internal diameter 

       1.5"                           5.75"                                       1.25"                          2.75"        

 

I cannot find dimensions for the breech rope rings but scaling from 2.5" circumference running tackle rope to 7" circumference breeching should get you very close.

 

Same for your port tackle and muzzle rope.  You can size by ratio based on the line sizes.

 

Keep in mind that the smaller guns on your model had different size rings and bolts.

 

Allan

 

 

Edited December 14, 2021 by allanyed

[jayaero1]

Allan, Thanks for the information.  yes, i'm new here, navigating my way through, and trying to get all the ducks in a row to do a Victory model.  the images came from the web, and while i was more interested in a clear illustration of the eyes & rings for asking my question, you bring up a great point about the blocks as illustrated (Notations in the cad-model go > here) . 

 

I feel sort of silly now, i've mainly been using Goodwin's book for the 1745 Establishment, and totally missed the little table about the eyes/rings.

As for the rope sizing, yes i agree that the run-in/run-out ropes would be approx 1" diameter, meaning the breech rope would be at least 3-4 inches in dia.  Thinking in 1/48 scale though, to reduce the diameters for each different size gun could be do-able.  is worth investigating at the proper time.
Structurally, i would not think the Breech rope rings would be in knees either, but the run-ins certainly could be.

I included a list of the books i've accumulated here IRT HMS Victory and some modelling-oriented books as well.  any additional books you can recommend is greatly appreciated.  Thanks!

[allanyed]

Your library for building a model of Victory is impressive to say the least.   If you plan to do any rigging, I urge you to get a copy of David Lees book  The Masting and Rigging of  English Ships of War.  For armament, the best book, IMHO to have is Adrian Caruana's The History of British Sea Ordnance,

Volume 2.

 

For Victory I do not believe there are a full set of contemporary plans still around, including at RMG.   As Victory has been done to death by modelers for eons, there are many other vessels with complete sets of contemporary plans available at RMG you might want to  consider if you are going to be scratch building.   A good example of a second rate with seven detailed high resolution drawings available for free is the 98 gun HMS Glory 1788.  Scantlings from The Shipbuilder's Repository 1788 would fit right in and is available on its own or in the Scantlings of Royal Navy Ships 1719-1805 from SeaWatch Books.   I realize you are well invested in Victory by now, but thought an alternative could be interesting for you.

 

Considering your obvious interest in doing research first, (kudos to you for that!!!)  I hope you start a build log and post photos as you progress in your project.

 

AND as a fan of Victory, please do sign up per my signature below.   Adam Preston is making progress to get this TV series going.

 

Allan

 

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2021 by allanyed

[Lieste]

18 hours ago, jayaero1 said:

Allan, Thanks for the information.  yes, i'm new here, navigating my way through, and trying to get all the ducks in a row to do a Victory model.  the images came from the web, and while i was more interested in a clear illustration of the eyes & rings for asking my question, you bring up a great point about the blocks as illustrated (Notations in the cad-model go > here) . 

 

I feel sort of silly now, i've mainly been using Goodwin's book for the 1745 Establishment, and totally missed the little table about the eyes/rings.

As for the rope sizing, yes i agree that the run-in/run-out ropes would be approx 1" diameter, meaning the breech rope would be at least 3-4 inches in dia.  Thinking in 1/48 scale though, to reduce the diameters for each different size gun could be do-able.  is worth investigating at the proper time.
Structurally, i would not think the Breech rope rings would be in knees either, but the run-ins certainly could be.

I included a list of the books i've accumulated here IRT HMS Victory and some modelling-oriented books as well.  any additional books you can recommend is greatly appreciated.  Thanks!

By The Vade Mecum table, the circ of the Breeching is 6", 5" or 4" according to the nature of the piece. This is below 2" diameter for all natures. (1.9" for 24/32pdr, 1.7" for 18/12pdr, 1.3" for 9/6/4pdr - carronades explicitly not stated, but recoil energy of a carronade exceeds that of the gun firing in single shot with distance charge, so they should probably be at least the same, and these are existing ropes for breeching, so using the same is not unreasonable. 68pdr might need a slightly higher breeching).

[allanyed]

Hi Lieste,

 

Jay's project is for Victory, 1765  so it probably would more appropriately be based on the 1745 and 1750 Establishments (which were very similar) , not the  Seaman's Vade Mecum which did not come out until 1812.  

 

The Vade Mecum is probably  a great thing to have for ships built after 1812, but maybe not so much for the  1700's.   Out of curiosity, have you compared the Vade Mecum with Steel's Elements and Practice of Rigging and Seamanship 1795?  I wonder how close they might be.

 

Have a great holiday season!!

 

Allan

 

[Lieste]

Are we thinking that gun power had reduced or guns got lighter (thus increasing recoil energy from higher recoil velocity)?
Cross checking with the French practice of the 1770s, from the "74 gun ship", has a breeching (strictly a carriage rope), which is a ~7.5" circumference rope, with a ~7" diameter bore. The sizes are likely to be the closest standard circumference of ropes used in the rigging of ships to the bore diameter.

A book compiled and published in 1812 is likely reporting information largely gathered by notes over the past decades of practice - well before the major actions of the late war, but I also see little reason to assume thicker breechings for earlier, heavy, less powerful powder/ordnance in a long period of reasonably stable technology.

Cross checking some other sources shows a heavier breeching on carronades, but one unlikely to be visually distinct.

[allanyed]

Lieste,  Sorry for any confusion, I was only referring to English ships as Jay's subject was for HMS Victory.  I have no information on French ships, but for English ships:  Below- 1723, 1743 and 1765 data are from the Public Records Office and 1747 is from a list of stores on the HMS Invincible (NMM RUSI/6) Caruana, The History of English Sea Ordnance, Volume 2  page 385

 

1723    1743    1747     1765

6"           6"         7.5"         7"

 

Allan

 

 

[Lieste]

That may include breeching supplied for a 42pdr deck. (which with 7" bore would also be consistent with French practice.)

The English tended to reduce guns when not "at war", swapping the heavy 42pdr out for 32pdr with lower manning requirements, the substitution might well be best suited to ironwork on the GD sized for the heavier gun, along with tackles and breechings suited to the heavier.

6" is 1.9"dia
7" is 2.2"
7.5" is 2.4" dia

All are still "well below" 3-4" diameter, which prompted the first response.

[allanyed]

Hi Lieste

For 42 pounders, from the same sources as above.   

1723           1743

6"                 7"

 

Thanks for sharing about the British replacing 42 pounders with 32 pounders during peacetime, this was new information for me.  I would like to learn more about this as it is actually very interesting so if you would be so kind, can you share your source for this?

 

Thanks again, your help on this is appreciated.

 

Allan

[jayaero1]

Lieste & Allenyed, thanks so much for the info!   BTW,  I just ordered the Masting & Rigging book recommended!   thanks for that tip!   and yes, research is always a way to avoid at least some pitfalls.   found a good price on a copy at Alibris .com so here in a week or so that will be added.  

 

I was looking in the search here on the site for a place where there might be bibliographies for different ships, subjects, or periods.  likely my "newbie-ness" got in the way of me finding that place.    if there is such a place, please advise the path...

 

So it looks like i now have the info i need on the eyes & rings as well as the breech rope.   Happy Happy Joy Joy.  

 

I had read that the MGD on Victory was built for the 42s, but at Trafalgar all were replaced w- 32s.  when researching the beam sizing, i found references in either McGowan's or Goodwin's  book (or maybe Longridge) indicating the MGD was (as built) timbered for the 42s.   I won't have to worry about that as they wouldn't be visible in my projected model, but for some reason that little fact stuck in my head.

 

I'm creating plans for this in CAD, and plan to do a non-traditional build one of these days.   here's a few pics.   real-life has been getting in the way of a lot of hobbies the last couple of years, but hopefully that situation gets adjusted out here soon.  

 

and Merry Christmas everyone!    Jay