Staghound 1850 by rwiederrich - 1/96 - Extreme Clipper

[rwiederrich]

I have that movie…….I just can’t get my wife to watch it with me……Gots to sneak it in sometime.    
 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

Rich,  we know the the rake of all her masts, per Duncan McLean is 1ft per 8ft.   Which equates to 6deg.    Reviewing Chapelle’s drawing…..he has the main and mizzen at 6deg, but the fore is only 4deg……?  Are we missing something or did ole Chapelle’s, miss something?

 

Rob

Rob,

All masts rake equally. If Chappelle's illustration is off, either the photo is off or he made a mistake.

[ClipperFan]

Rob,

I'm unsure if you already shared this powerful piece or not "Angry Seas, US Clipper Stag Hound" - 1990 James Brereton

[ClipperFan]

One more favorite of mine: "Clipper Stag Hound" original oil by Charles Lundgren, done for the collectible plate series "The Golden Age of Sail."

From the detail, it's obvious that as evocative and beautiful as this painting is, the stag hound figure awkwardly projects from the prow and looks more like a bulldog. In addition, there's no navel hoods or cutwater, nor a central portico that can be seen and in fact the mizzen mast appears to be mounted on the poop deck. Still, I love the painting and somewhere in storage I have this collectible along with the entire series....

[ClipperFan]

2 hours ago, Bill Morrison said:

I strongly recommend watching The Bounty with Anthony Hopkins and Mel Brooks to really get an idea of life at sea trying to round the Horn.  It wasn't an easy endeavor. I'm surprised more sailors weren't lost.  Also, Gordon Lightfoot released a son called Ghosts of Cape Horn and Wreck of the Edmund Fitzgerald that stressed the dangers of a life at sea.  These are worth a watch and a listen.

 

Bill

Bill,

Tragically, the HMS Bounty film replica foundered during the monster hurricane Sandy. Apparently, her captain forgot how the original ship which his vessel was an authentic reinterpretation of. didn't fare that well fighting the massive waves of Cape Horn. 

[ClipperFan]

31 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

One more favorite of mine: "Clipper Stag Hound" original oil by Charles Lundgren, done for the collectible plate series "The Golden Age of Sail."

From the detail, it's obvious that as evocative and beautiful as this painting is, the stag hound figure awkwardly projects from the prow and looks more like a bulldog. In addition, there's no navel hoods or cutwater, nor a central portico that can be seen and in fact the mizzen mast appears to be mounted on the poop deck. Still, I love the painting and somewhere in storage I have this collectible along with the entire series....

 

[rwiederrich]

I’ve been thinking about the copper bottom.   Staghound had copper, not muntz metal.  I want to patina the copper and possibly make it white to light green around the waterline. 
 

Rob

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

  In the photo above, the nails are just visible ... so Rob's sandpaper method of randomized small dinks gives that effect.

 

  Touching on the hazards of life on board clippers:  From the book 'Some Famous Sailing Ships and their Builder Donald McKay' (having an appendix in the back with ship data), of the 30 Clippers McKay built between 1850 and 1856 - 9 were burned (varying numbers of fatalities, but generally low) 30%;  6 were lost at sea (all hands) 20%;  4 were wrecked (varying numbers of casualties) 13%;  2 abandoned 7%;  and 9 without end-of-service record 30%.  The average time of service (where known) averaged about 11 years (10 if one excludes the Chariot of Fame, which had 23 years - to make it easier to reckon yearly odds of disaster below).

  Combining fire, loss at sea and wrecking - one gets 63% of these fine clippers ending up badly.  So a sailor had about a 2/3rds chance of experiencing one of these fates in a 10 year period, on one ship or another, or about 6.6% chance in any year.  So (statistically) during the 'golden age' of the clipper (1850s & 60s), a man who stayed a clipper sailor for 20 years would count on encountering one disaster or another.

 

  Among the notable McKay ships of the data set are:  Staghound, Flying Cloud, Flying Fish, Sovereign of the Seas, Empress of the Seas, Chariot of Fame, Great Republic and Lightning.

[ClipperFan]

2 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

I’ve been thinking about the copper bottom.   Staghound had copper, not muntz metal.  I want to patina the copper and possibly make it white to light green around the waterline. 
 

Rob

@rwiederrich

Is that pre-restoration Cutty Sark? When I read about your decision to portray a copper sheathed Stag Hound and not one using Muntz metal, it made me think. Muntz metal was invented in 1836, 14 practically 15 years before McKay launched his inaugural clipper ship. In England, popularity for this revolutionary "yellow metal" often referred to as coppering spread like wildfire. It was more effective and cheaper than copper. Meanwhile, prior to building his clipper ships, Donald McKay was deeply involved in the Transatlantic packet ship trade supplying Enoch Train with 5 ships from 1845-1849. Large vessels which regularly sailed from Boston to London. I find it hard to believe that Donald McKay who always seemed to be on the cutting edge of marine design, wouldn't have become aware of this exciting new cladding, which would have been introduced almost a decade earlier. 

Regardless, it's your model, your choice. I'm just giving you my observations.

 

 

[ClipperFan]

9 minutes ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

  In the photo above, the nails are just visible ... so Rob's sandpaper method of randomized small dinks gives that effect.

 

  Touching on the hazards of life on board clippers:  From the book 'Some Famous Sailing Ships and their Builder Donald McKay' (having an appendix in the back with ship data), of the 30 Clippers McKay built between 1850 and 1856 - 9 were burned (varying numbers of fatalities, but generally low) 30%;  6 were lost at sea (all hands) 20%;  4 were wrecked (varying numbers of casualties) 13%;  2 abandoned 7%;  and 9 without end-of-service record 30%.  The average time of service (where known) averaged about 11 years (10 if one excludes the Chariot of Fame, which had 23 years - to make it easier to reckon yearly odds of disaster below).

  Combining fire, loss at sea and wrecking - one gets 63% of these fine clippers ending up badly.  So a sailor had about a 2/3rds chance of experiencing one of these fates in a 10 year period, on one ship or another, or about 6.6% chance in any year.  So (statistically) during the 'golden age' of the clipper (1850s & 60s), a man who stayed a clipper sailor for 20 years would count on encountering one disaster or another.

 

  Among the notable McKay ships of the data set are:  Staghound, Flying Cloud, Flying Fish, Sovereign of the Seas, Empress of the Seas, Chariot of Fame, Great Republic and Lightning.

@Snug Harbor Johnny very solid research with some disturbing end results. It also emphasizes the remarkable longevity of McKay's last, longest lived clipper ship Glory of the Seas launched in 1869, yet still afloat in 1923... 54 years later. Pity her last owners didn't maintain her yellow sheathing or she might still be with us today. As fate would have it, the committee formed to recue her decided due to dry rot that she wouldn't be seaworthy enough to make the journey around Cape Horn. At least her magnificent figurehead was saved before she became a funeral pyre.

 

 

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

@rwiederrich

Is that pre-restoration Cutty Sark? When I read about your decision to portray a copper sheathed Stag Hound and not one using Muntz metal, it made me think. Muntz metal was invented in 1836, 14 practically 15 years before McKay launched his inaugural clipper ship. In England, popularity for this revolutionary "yellow metal" often referred to as coppering spread like wildfire. It was more effective and cheaper than copper. Meanwhile, prior to building his clipper ships, Donald McKay was deeply involved in the Transatlantic packet ship trade supplying Enoch Train with 5 ships from 1845-1849. Large vessels which regularly sailed from Boston to London. I find it hard to believe that Donald McKay who always seemed to be on the cutting edge of marine design, wouldn't have become aware of this exciting new cladding, which would have been introduced almost a decade earlier. 

Regardless, it's your model, your choice. I'm just giving you my observations.

 

 

It’s the Constitution.  
 

Duncan McLean is the one who said she was clad in copper.    
 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

10 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

I find it hard to believe that Donald McKay who always seemed to be on the cutting edge of marine design, wouldn't have become aware of this exciting new cladding, which would have been introduced almost a decade earlier. 

Regardless, it's your model, your choice. I'm just giving you my observations.

Who's to say McKay didn't have loads of copper in his warehouse...and he wanted to use it up before moving onto  Muntz metal?

Coming from you...that last statement is disturbing.🤪    When have you ever known me to diverge from the historical facts..... for an artistic option?   I expect to either be corrected by you, or given your concurrence, but to simply give up and defer to, *It's your model, your choice*, Well.....I find that out of character.  Not to mention the expression that must have been on your face while you were typing that.🤣

 

But as I posted earlier...Duncan McLean stated she was coppered below.  I think he would have made the correct distinction.  Unless I'm totally off base here.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

57 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Who's to say McKay didn't have loads of copper in his warehouse...and he wanted to use it up before moving onto  Muntz metal?

Coming from you...that last statement is disturbing.🤪    When have you ever known me to diverge from the historical facts..... for an artistic option?   I expect to either be corrected by you, or given your concurrence, but to simply give up and defer to, *It's your model, your choice*, Well.....I find that out of character.  Not to mention the expression that must have been on your face while you were typing that.🤣

 

But as I posted earlier...Duncan McLean stated she was coppered below.  I think he would have made the correct distinction.  Unless I'm totally off base here.

 

Rob

@rwiederrich

Rob, my last statement was to let you know that I fully respect that you're the person building your replica. I just re-read the McLean article in full and apparently I'm missing your reference, because I couldn't find a single reference to any cladding, copper or otherwise. But I did discover something that I apparently missed before. Her keel, clear of the garboards was 39 inches not 30 inches as described by Donald's son Cornelius. Then again, Cornelius also said her strakes were 4 inches when the McLean description repeatedly said 4 & 1/2 inches.

But back to the discussion of copper vs Muntz metal. I discovered how Enoch Train learned about Donald McKay. In early 1844 on a visit to England, to make arrangements for his new Transatlantic Packet line, Mr Train happened to meet Dennis Condry. He was the owner of the Delia Walker, of Newburyport. The ship happened to be built under supervision of... a young Donald McKay. Condry was so impressed with McKay's work that he urged Train to see McKay first, before any other ship Builder to construct his brand new line of packet ships. When he returned from his trip to England, Enoch followed the advice of Mr Condry. According to Captain Arthur Clark "it was the swift contact of flint and steel." Less than an hour later, Enoch Train placed an order with Donald McKay for a brand new 620-ton packet ship, named Joshua Bates. Mr Train was so delighted with this inaugarul packet ship that he convinced Mr McKay to open up his own shipyard in East Boston which Mr Train offered to finance. Ultimately, Donald McKay built packet ships for Enoch Train's White Diamond Line. 

Here's why, after reading about this history, I'm convinced that all of those ships would have all been clad in Muntz metal, not copper.  Think critically about it. By the time Muntz metal was introduced as an alternative to copper, it was 8 years earlier in 1836. According to the history of Muntz metal there as widespread adaptation in England. In a few short years it went from 50 to 100 to 200 to 400 vessels. Meanwhile British Admiralty made a bold decision to strip all of its vessels copper cladding and replace it with Muntz metal. 

With it being less costly and far more corrosion resistant, why would Enoch Train, taking on a high risk venture of establishing a brand new Transatlantic Packet line not select the less expensive, more effective yellow metal "copper" lining? To me, it defies logic. Now think about the extreme clipper Stag Hound Donald McKay's premiere entry into the highly competitive world of fast sailing merchant vessels. We know he intentionally made a statement by designing and constructing the largest merchant ship in the world. It was established fact by 1850 ships clad in yellow metal actually sailed faster than those with the old copper. Why wouldn't McKay use the best and proven fastest?

 

 

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

@rwiederrich

Rob, my last statement was to let you know that I fully respect that you're the person building your replica. I just re-read the McLean article in full and apparently I'm missing your reference, because I couldn't find a single reference to any cladding, copper or otherwise. But I did discover something that I apparently missed before. Her keel, clear of the garboards was 39 inches not 30 inches as described by Donald's son Cornelius. Then again, Cornelius also said her strakes were 4 inches when the McLean description repeatedly said 4 & 1/2 inches.

But back to the discussion of copper vs Muntz metal. I discovered how Enoch Train learned about Donald McKay. In early 1844 on a visit to England, to make arrangements for his new Transatlantic Packet line, Mr Train happened to meet Dennis Condry. He was the owner of the Delia Walker, of Newburyport. The ship happened to be built under supervision of... a young Donald McKay. Condry was so impressed with McKay's work that he urged Train to see McKay first, before any other ship Builder to construct his brand new line of packet ships. When he returned from his trip to England, Enoch followed the advice of Mr Condry. According to Captain Arthur Clark "it was the swift contact of flint and steel." Less than an hour later, Enoch Train placed an order with Donald McKay for a brand new 620-ton packet ship, named Joshua Bates. Mr Train was so delighted with this inaugarul packet ship that he convinced Mr McKay to open up his own shipyard in East Boston which Mr Train offered to finance. Ultimately, Donald McKay built packet ships for Enoch Train's White Diamond Line. 

Here's why, after reading about this history, I'm convinced that all of those ships would have all been clad in Muntz metal, not copper.  Think critically about it. By the time Muntz metal was introduced as an alternative to copper, it was 8 years earlier in 1836. According to the history of Muntz metal there as widespread adaptation in England. In a few short years it went from 50 to 100 to 200 to 400 vessels. Meanwhile British Admiralty made a bold decision to strip all of its vessels copper cladding and replace it with Muntz metal. 

With it being less costly and far more corrosion resistant, why would Enoch Train, taking on a high risk venture of establishing a brand new Transatlantic Packet line not select the less expensive, more effective yellow metal "copper" lining? To me, it defies logic. Now think about the extreme clipper Stag Hound Donald McKay's premiere entry into the highly competitive world of fast sailing merchant vessels. We know he intentionally made a statement by designing and constructing the largest merchant ship in the world. It was established fact by 1850 ships clad in yellow metal actually sailed faster than those with the old copper. Why wouldn't McKay use the best and proven fastest?

 

 

Believe me...I agree completely with you on both substance and position.  I was fully aware of muntz metals adoption...and McKay's dedication to *High tech* of the time.

I will have t go over with a fine tooth comb the info I have...cuz I read that she was clad in copper....even to my amazement.

Thanks for keeping me honest.....

 

Rob

Edited July 24 by rwiederrich

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

Believe me...I agree completely with you on both substance and position.  I was fully aware of muntz metals adoption...and McKay's dedication to *High tech* of the time.

I will have t go over with a fine tooth comb the info I have...cuz I read that she was clad in copper....even to my amazement.

Thanks for keeping me honest.....

 

Rob

@rwiederrich Rob,

Muntz filed his British and US patent for his metal on October 22, 1832 (the US patent was one of 1,000s lost in a US patent office on December 15, 1836 fire. Still it had been previously reported a year later, in "The Journal of the Franklin Institute, vol 12, 1833") and the British patent survives today. Both patents were filed 18 years prior to launch of Stag Hound. To me it's impossible to think Donald McKay, on the cutting edge of maritime design even for his highly popular packet ships, wasn't aware of this revolutionary development. And to believe McKay (a frugal Scottsman too) would have still employed more costly, inferior copper decades later, when far superior Muntz metal, at a cost of two-thirds less was widely available just doesn't make any sense at all. 

Meanwhile, technically muntz "yellow metal" is still copper, as it's roughly 60% copper, 40% zinc with other iron alloys. My view, based on this historic research is that the "copper" McLean referred to was in reality Muntz metal which was simply, lazily referred to as copper instead.

 

Edited July 24 by ClipperFan
additional information

[Rick310]

Clipperfan, that makes a lot of sense to me.  Like saying Kleenx as generic for facial tissue 

Rick

[rwiederrich]

20 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

@rwiederrich Rob,

Muntz filed his US patent for his metal on October 27, 1832 (18 years prior to launch of Stag Hound). To believe McKay (a frugal Scottsman too) would have still employed more costly, inferior copper, when far superior Muntz metal, at a cost of two-thirds less was widely available just doesn't make any sense. 

Meanwhile, technically "yellow metal" is still copper, as it's 60% copper, 40% zinc with other alloys. My view, based on this historic research is that the copper McLean referred to was in reality Muntz metal which was simply, lazily referred to as copper instead.

 

I tend to agree.  I will still look to where I read that simple description....but as you said...He doesn't say copper perse' in his writeup.  Where did I read that? Mmmmmmm😕.  Heck...anyway,   I prefer my Metalic overcoat on the copper anyway....it looks like oxidized muntz.  More brown then green.

How much does a 39" keel fiddle with our drawing of her lines?    Are you gonna throw that back at Vlad?

 

Rob

Edited July 24 by rwiederrich

[rwiederrich]

6 minutes ago, Rick310 said:

Clipperfan, that makes a lot of sense to me.  Like saying Kleenx as generic for facial tissue 

Rick

Good point Rick......like Philips for a star tipped screw driver....or Crecent, for an adjustable wrench.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

4 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

I tend to agree.  I will still look to where I read that simple description....but as you said...He doesn't say copper perse' in his writeup.  Where did I read that? Mmmmmmm😕.  Heck...anyway,   I prefer my Metalica overcoat on the copper anyway....it looks like oxidized muntz.  More brown then green.

How much does a 39" keel fiddle with our drawing of her lines?    Are you gonna throw that back at Vlad?

 

Rob

@rwiederrich Rob,

In all fairness to Vlad, I have to let him know the keel was reported as being 39 inches clear of the garboards and not 30. Then again, how Cornelius got that off doesn't make sense. Of course, if the total combined depth of the keel still totals 46 inches, that drops an upper section from 16 down to a mere  7 inches, which also defies credulity. Is it possible that hand-written recorded 30 inches was simply misread as 39? That seems more believable. 

[rwiederrich]

11 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

@rwiederrich Rob,

In all fairness to Vlad, I have to let him know the keel was reported as being 39 inches clear of the garboards and not 30. Then again, how Cornelius got that off doesn't make sense. Of course, if the total combined depth of the keel still totals 46 inches, that drops an upper section from 16 down to a mere  7 inches, which also defies credulity. Is it possible that hand-written recorded 30 inches was simply misread as 39? That seems more believable. 

Trying to figure out what people meant to say and pen is an art far and above my modeling skills.  I've stated it before,...... *Once you eliminate the impossible....whatever remains, no matter how improbable..must be the truth*

 

Rob

Edited July 24 by rwiederrich

[Bill Morrison]

17 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Bill,

Tragically, the HMS Bounty film replica foundered during the monster hurricane Sandy. Apparently, her captain forgot how the original ship which his vessel was an authentic reinterpretation of. didn't fare that well fighting the massive waves of Cape Horn. 

Yes, I know of this tragic loss.  Unfortunately, the Captain was trying to escape the hurricane. However, he took the ship into the path of the storm, and she was lost. Her crew largely survived.

 

Bill

[ClipperFan]

6 minutes ago, Bill Morrison said:

Yes, I know of this tragic loss.  Unfortunately, the Captain was trying to escape the hurricane. However, he took the ship into the path of the storm, and she was lost. Her crew largely survived.

 

Bill

Bill 

What compunds the tragic nature of this, to me at least bone-headed decision to take on a monster hurricane (reported strengthening and expanding on all weather stations), is that they could have easily sailed a short distance up the Hudson river and put into a safe harbor there. A place they had relied on before. They would have lost a day's sailing time. Then again a great, great niece of original mutineer Fletcher Christian wouldn't have lost her life too...

[ClipperFan]

25 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Trying to figure out what people meant to say and pen is an art far and above my modeling skills.  I've stated it before,...... *Once you eliminate the impossible....whatever remains, no matter how improbable..must be the truth*

 

Rob

@rwiederrich

my vote is to leave the keel at 30 inches. A 16 inch upper keel is far more substantial than 7.

[rwiederrich]

4 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

@rwiederrich

my vote is to leave the keel at 30 inches. A 16 inch upper keel is far more substantial than 7.

I agree on the 30” keel.   

[druxey]

For a ship of her size, 30" seems entirely plausible.

[ClipperFan]

44 minutes ago, druxey said:

For a ship of her size, 30" seems entirely plausible.

@druxey

Using a 39" outer keel plus a 16" inner results in 55" total, pushing the height of all her masts up 9". Meanwhile to stay at 46" as described in more than one place, with the outer keel being 39" forces inner down to 7" which is impossibly thin. I honestly believe others weren't paying as careful attention, so a transcript recording error occurred which nobody bothered to fact check. 

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

I agree on the 30” keel.   

@rwiederrich so I will just leave well enough alone and not confuse Vlad with this little off the path trek to nowhere ...

[ClipperFan]

For anyone who's curious, here's a series of actual Staghounds. They aren't a registered AKC Breed but essentially what I've read is that it's a cross between Scottish Deerhounds (often called Staghounds in Scotland) and Greyhounds. You can see from the trainer struggling to hold 2 of these powerful canines back that they can really run. The painting shows a hound chasing a stag, which is very similar to the figurehead's pose as described: "a carved and gilded staghound represented panting in the chase."

Edited July 24 by ClipperFan
additional information

[ClipperFan]

 

3 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

@druxey

Using a 39" outer keel plus a 16" inner results in 55" total, pushing the height of all her masts up 9". Meanwhile to stay at 46" as described in more than one place, with the outer keel being 39" forces inner down to 7" which is impossibly thin. I honestly believe others weren't paying as careful attention, so a transcript recording error occurred which nobody bothered to fact check. 

 

 

 

Edited July 25 by ClipperFan
removed duplicate information

[ClipperFan]

To give a sense of how challenging making transcripts can be, here are a few screenshots of Henry Hall's "Notebooks for Shipbuilding in the United States 1881-1883, Volume II, Models and Measurements" exhaustively detailed handwritten notes, March 24, 1883, New York. This is just a sample set of pages enumerating all scantlings of every one of Donald McKay's clipper ships, including Stag Hound. Incidentally, I scoured all notes regarding Stag Hound, there's no mention at all of the lower keel being 39 inches. You're welcome, by the way. This comes courtesy of Scott Bradner's excellent sobco.com site. For those who really want to see this entire pdf file, here's the link:

 

http://www.sobco.com/ship_model/fc/files/Hall-Models_and_Measurements-1883.pdf

 

Note: on a cell phone, hold your finger to open a new tab. On laptop, right click to open in a new tab, which should launch the pdf. Then click "open" to view or "download" to save it. 

Edited July 25 by ClipperFan
title corrected