Staghound 1850 by rwiederrich - 1/96 - Extreme Clipper

[rwiederrich]

7 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

Oh yeah, on that we agree.  Try as I might, I still can't find any system that was used to prevent water ingestion. I just know that there must have been something.

There could have been some kind of *flapper* valve with a float attached.

I'm going to see Mike after work today to get him to sign his latest book and to discuss our current project...Staghound.  He's very interested.  I'll tell him you said Hi.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

Great meeting with Mike.  Talked about lots of issues.  Finalizing…….

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

I think the next thing I’m gonna make is the stern Staghound, that embellishes her fantail just below her namesake and port of origin.   
 

This I’ll couple with building her main deck cabin as well.  The dimensions are clear and straight forward.  
 

I want to get as much individual items completed before the bulkheads arrive and the hull construction begins. 
 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

On 8/7/2024 at 6:58 PM, rwiederrich said:

I think the next thing I’m gonna make is the stern Staghound, that embellishes her fantail just below her namesake and port of origin.   
 

This I’ll couple with building her main deck cabin as well.  The dimensions are clear and straight forward.  
 

I want to get as much individual items completed before the bulkheads arrive and the hull construction begins. 
 

Rob

@rwiederrich here's the extent (such as it is) of Scotsman Duncan McLean's less than lavish description of the stern ornamentation on Staghound:

 

"A stag, her name and other devices, neatly executed, ornament her stern. Mr. Gleason, a young artist of much promise, made her carved work." 

 

In this case, I see dead center, an antler bearing male deer (stag) in a prancing motion similar to the idea of John Deer logo, head facing left. Surrounding him would be curling acanthus leaves, very ornate surrounding lettering like was on the stern on Glory of the Seas. Here's some examples. This is the original 1876 John Deere logo. A photo of a leaping deer and a sample of acanthus leave carving. I see the leaping stag as a counterpart to the leaping canine figurehead.

 

Herbert Gleason is the artist who 19 years later carved the magnificent, very lifelike Grecian goddess Athene figurehead on Glory of the Seas. In Spring 1851 McLean, quite impressed with the trumpet bearing winged angel on Flying Cloud mentioned that Mr. Gleason had previously carved the longbowman figurehead on the clipper Morning Star.

 

 

Edited August 10 by ClipperFan
Missing name

[rwiederrich]

I'm trying to follow the obvious disconnect...between the figurehead of a Staghound....and a *stag* deer as a stern carving?

Personally, I interpreted that Duncan McLean was simply referencing the Staghound in simple terms as *Stag*.

It makes no sense to name your ship after a Staghound...a fast racing/chasing Canine.......instilling speed in the chase.....then on the other side of the coin...place a *stag* Deer on her stern?  It's a dichotomy.  The aggressor (attributes, the ship is named after), that chases quickly,  its hapless quarry on the stern?   This entire line of thinking makes no sense to me.

 

Examples:  Great Republic, had an eagle's head for a figurehead and a large carved eagle on its stern.  A balance of implied strength.  Which an eagle symbolizes.

 

There was a clipper by McKay named *Reindeer*....but in that instance the reindeer was symbolizing, swiftness and agility.  Not prey to be hunted....????

 

Rob

Edited August 9 by rwiederrich

[druxey]

OK, this many be a stretch, but "other devices" might include a staghound chasing the stag/deer on the counter? Would that work for you?

[rwiederrich]

This description doesn't follow any other ship McKay built.  Flying Cloud doesn't have an Angel blowing a horn as her figurehead and then a cumulous cloud in motion on her fantail. Or Flying fish, with a flying fish as her figurehead and a marlin in chase on her stern......

Nore does this concept make any real sense when the figurehead was the symbol of the theme/attitude being conveyed as the attribute of the clipper design.

 

Unlike pirate flags that depicted graphic scenes of what you may expect when captured by them........  Commercial vessels (clippers, cuz that is what we are talking about), didn't depict reactionary imagery to the theme or subject their namesake vessels were trying to convey.  The Davey Crocket..didn't have Davey on the prow and the Alimo mission on the stern.

 

Sorry for the rant....but I ain't buyin it.

 

Rob (Not at this time anyway)

[rwiederrich]

We’ll, as advertised, I began the main houser. 
just started the base substructure.  
I tooled up the mill and routered the base trim.  
 

lots to do,but this is a start. 
 

Rob

[druxey]

I said it was a stretch, Rob! How about if the typesetter accidentally omitted the 'hound' in 'staghound'? More plausible?

[rwiederrich]

12 hours ago, druxey said:

I said it was a stretch, Rob! How about if the typesetter accidentally omitted the 'hound' in 'staghound'? More plausible?

I would find that more plausible for sure.  In all of Mckay's clippers, I see no indication that this kind of insinuation or connection was ever implied.  Relative association...IMV is misleading.

Since we have no photographic evidence, or first hand drawings/paintings of such a suggestion.....I side with what I do know......and that, unfortunately is still little. 

 

But I appreciate your playing the advocate.  It makes us think.🙂

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

Wow! Rob, it didn't even occur to me to think this was such a controversial issue or get this rise from you. I just thought it was a "Woodsy" Scottish thing. In Scotland a Deerhound was often referred to as a Staghound, almost as if it were interchangeable. More than one contemporary painting depicts these canines chasing deer too. You might just be applying 21st century sensitivities to 19th century decorative standards. In addition, Cornelius McKay's own handwritten notes specifically refer to a "stag hound" figurehead but a stag on the stern. My thought was exactly opposite of yours. To me it's logical that the stern counter would depict the quarry that has the stag hound so aroused to give chase. I agree with Druxey's observation, "other devices" could easily mean more dogs giving chase as they usually hunted in packs. Regardless, if you just want to depict stag hounds alone, I don't think anyone else will call you out on that. 

[druxey]

So the observations were written, not typeset, as I had assumed. Stag it is, then!

[ClipperFan]

2 hours ago, druxey said:

So the observations were written, not typeset, as I had assumed. Stag it is, then!

@druxey

@rwiederrich had a fairly visceral reaction which was entirely unexpected. My more muted response to portraying a leaping stag as a central stern motif is it struck me as a logical contretemps to a leaping stag hound figurehead on the bow. It may perhaps also be due to my exposure to highly ornate carvings seen in West Germany on our everyday furniture. Our parents had a rented 3 story apartment in Mainz, Gönsenheim. Included was this massive highly decorated cherry wood dining room cabinet. It was festooned with living and dead animals. Sounds grotesque but actually it was done with such high skill and naturalistic portrayal that it wasn't offensive. Above and along the upper sections were foxes, squirrels, chipmunks and birds all interspersed between oak leaves, acorns, grapes and other foliage. There were even animals facing eachother on part of the level surface. On the lower section, adorning the outer edges on one side dangled a hare hanging by its bound feet. Balancing the other end was a similar hanging pheasant. All of this was supported by ball and claw legs that were so lifelike, my imagination could see the massive feet just walking towards me! Such portrayals are routinely seen on Bavarian Cuckoo Clocks as well. So to me, showing a deer high tailing it away, at least continued a story begun on the bow. It just seems logical. In fact other devices could be other dogs. pheasants or foxes etc. It could all be tastefully done to portray the hunting abilities of the stag hound.

Edited August 9 by ClipperFan
additional information

[rwiederrich]

Stag it is.  I did leave the Idea that My mind could be changed…….if presented with a counter logical explanation.   
 

I lived in German for three and a half years……I know about their historical depictions.  
Im not effected about modern sensibilities.   I want to get it right……and if I don’t feel right about something……….I’m checking it out to the best of my ability.   And sometimes I’m absolutely dead wrong.   But I got to work it out.   
 

Rob
 

[rwiederrich]

Today I worked on the main cabin.   Finished up the woodwork and put on the first coat of paint.    
I wanted to get that done, as I was working on the roof overhangs……..prepping for more molding to follow around the outer edge.  
 

First coats of paint soak in and the thing looks terrible.    We’ll get there.  I’ll sand the whole thing to remove defects , and clean it up for the next coat. 
 

Rob

 

 

Edited August 12 by rwiederrich

[ClipperFan]

31 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Stag it is.  I did leave the Idea that My mind could be changed…….if presented with a counter logical explanation.   
 

I lived in German for three and a half years……I know about their historical depictions.  
Im not effected about modern sensibilities.   I want to get it right……and if I don’t feel right about something……….I’m checking it out to the best of my ability.   And sometimes I’m absolutely dead wrong.   But I got to work it out.   
 

Rob
 

Rob,

If you felt in anyway offended by my remarks, I truly apologize. That wasn't what I meant to imply. I know how serious a modeler you are. I was honestly shocked at your initial reaction. My intent was to try to present an alternative interpretation. For the record, I'm not a hunter and own no guns 

[rwiederrich]

2 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

If you felt in anyway offended by my remarks, I truly apologize. That wasn't what I meant to imply. I know how serious a modeler you are. I was honestly shocked at your initial reaction. My intent was to try to present an alternative interpretation. For the record, I'm not a hunter and own no guns 

I wasn’t offended.  I look at every aspect.  And evaluating Intent based off historical actualities.  Somebody may say something, but if it flies in the face of other known facts……I’m questioning it. 
I’ve changed my mind, in the light of community concurrence and one eyewitness’s vague description.  
 

Mind you, it’s Duncan McLean’s description……vague as it is.   IMV.  
 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

30 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

I wasn’t offended.  I look at every aspect.  And evaluating Intent based off historical actualities.  Somebody may say something, but if it flies in the face of other known facts……I’m questioning it. 
I’ve changed my mind, in the light of community concurrence and one eyewitness’s vague description.  
 

Mind you, it’s Duncan McLean’s description……vague as it is.   IMV.  
 

Rob

Rob,

Perhaps it's my personal familiarity with Scottish sensibilities. They put far more emphasis on practical matters over carvings and ornamentation. I believe that's why we have such scarce information on McKay ship decorations. So when he gets specific, I think it speaks volumes.

[rwiederrich]

Yeah…..this is one of those particulars that requires *group think*….to fully realize. On one hand we can take what is said as gospel,,,,,,and on another hand we can freely dispel what is said.  All balancing on a thin blade.  
 

I’ll remove the lower paneling in keeping with McLeans account. 

[rwiederrich]

Did some work on the main house.  
first coat over the removed trim.  Some sanding to clean up some roughness due to paint infiltration. 
 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

@rwiederrich @Vladimir_Wairoa @Luis Felipe @druxey

 

Rob while you're waiting on final Stag Hound bulkheads, I refocused my efforts on the rear portico. So, you could have a scale accurate piece to focus your energetic building efforts on. I reviewed Michael Mjelde's original Glory of the Seas rear coach house front fascia and realized my arches didn't match really subdued ones on the vessels themselves. After correcting that element, I finally finished my rear portico house concept. This more accurately reflects both Glory of the Seas and J.E. Buttersworths painting of McKay's fourth clipper Flying Fish. Attached are fore and aft views which are done. I just need to revise the side view arches to match.  Dimensions are 8' square x 8'6" high to clear 32" high fore poop deck railings. Roof has 2' overhang for side entry sliding doors, while fore and aft are just 6" for mizzenmast clearance. Entire roof is encircled by 32" high safety rail on turned stanchions, which isn't mentioned but makes sense, considering it's an 8' fall. This is double the size of 1:96th scale so it needs to be reduced 50%. 

Edited August 12 by ClipperFan
additional information

[ClipperFan]

59 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Did some work on the main house.  
first coat over the removed trim.  Some sanding to clean up some roughness due to paint infiltration. 
 

Rob

@rwiederrich

Thanks for redoing your house to follow The Boston Daily Atlas description of the simpler house design. You've done beautiful, clean and elegant work. I particularly like how to roof molding overlaps the roof surface. Herringbone pattern on the rear door is an interesting choice. Nicely done. 

[rwiederrich]

11 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

@rwiederrich @Vladimir_Wairoa @Luis Felipe @druxey

 

Rob while you're waiting on final Stag Hound bulkheads, I refocused my efforts on the rear portico. So, you could have a scale accurate piece to focus your energetic building efforts on. I reviewed Michael Mjelde's original Glory of the Seas rear coach house front fascia and realized my arches didn't match really subdued ones on the vessels themselves. After correcting that element, I finally finished my rear portico house concept. This more accurately reflects both Glory of the Seas and J.E. Buttersworths painting of McKay's fourth clipper Flying Fish. Attached are fore and aft views which are done. I just need to revise the side view arches to match.  Dimensions are 8' square x 8'6" high to clear 32" high fore poop deck railings. Roof has 2' overhang for side entry sliding doors, while fore and aft are just 6" for mizzenmast clearance. Entire roof is encircled by 32" high safety rail on turned stanchions, which isn't mentioned but makes sense, considering it's an 8' fall. This is double the size of 1:96th scale so it needs to be reduced 50%. 

Beautifully drawn.  I love the embellishments.  Only one question.....what made you decide on a 2ft overhang?  Is that to mimic the roof overhang on the main cabin?  Which is what I was going to do....but I was thinking

 

 

more like 1ft.  Review Glory's overhang on her main cabin.  It's not even an overhang...but more like a gradual step of descending trim.  Great job by the way.

 

Rob

Edited August 12 by rwiederrich

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

Beautifully drawn.  I love the embellishments.  Only one question.....what made you decide on a 2ft overhang?  Is that to mimic the roof overhang on the main cabin?  Which is what I was going to do....but I was thinking

 

 

more like 1ft.  Review Glory's overhang on her main cabin.  It's not even an overhang...but more like a gradual step of descending trim.  Great job by the way.

 

Rob

Rob,

I agree with you. I was thinking of a somewhat smaller Stag Hound portico roof entrance overhang similar to that on Glory of the Seas stern coach house front fascia. It does look a bit oversized, so I'll scale it back to a foot on each side. That should be better proportioned, especially for the aft end.

[rwiederrich]

28 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

I agree with you. I was thinking of a somewhat smaller Stag Hound portico roof entrance overhang similar to that on Glory of the Seas stern coach house front fascia. It does look a bit oversized, so I'll scale it back to a foot on each side. That should be better proportioned, especially for the aft end.

You're doing a great job Rich.

Did you get my message about SOS?

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

Started the base work for the small portico.

This is quite a small structure, basically just a doorway passageway.    
 

Ron

[ClipperFan]

8 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

You're doing a great job Rich.

Did you get my message about SOS?

 

Rob

Rob,

Yes I did and I started sharing some of our research there. Just a note, other than an oversized roof, portico front and rear are the most accurate revisions I did. The side view structures still have a little more arch which needs to be toned down to match front and rear.  

[rwiederrich]

20 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

Yes I did and I started sharing some of our research there. Just a note, other than an oversized roof, portico front and rear are the most accurate revisions I did. The side view structures still have a little more arch which needs to be toned down to match front and rear.  

I agree…..you’re drawing is spectacular, I will use it as a reference.    However, what do you think if I eliminate the center window behind the mizzen mast.  They are so tight and very small?  
 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

I am really impressed wit the ornate design of this relatively small portico entranceway. Inspiration comes from Michael Mjelde's accurate sketch of McKay clipper: Glory of the Seas rear coach house front fascia and Buttersworth's Flying Fish painting of her ornate rear coach house. End result is a structure which has a much larger appearance than actual dimensions of the little building itself.

[ClipperFan]

33 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

I agree…..you’re drawing is spectacular, I will use it as a reference.    However, what do you think if I eliminate the center window behind the mizzen mast.  They are so tight and very small?  
 

Rob

Rob, as you said before, you had some concerns that such placement of a glass window might open it up to rigging damage. I'd just keep the same motif for design consistency but eliminate the window. My thinking was for providing light but the massive mast would probably block a lot of that as well.