Treenail Question From A Newbie

[DGraley]

Were treenails made from the same type wood as the planks?  If so, after sawing and planing smooth, wouldn't they almost disappear?  I ask because I see models both with and without the treenails evident.

[Y.T.]

Look here

 

[Y.T.]

One more from Victory deck 

 

[Y.T.]

I think you are right. No-one can see treenails in common scale as 1:48 as example except the current modelers. 

[Kenchington]

Good question!

 

Treenails were/are sometimes but not always the same wood type as the pieces being fastened. However, their heads show the end grain and hence contrast with the material around, so they don't exactly disappear. Run your hands over a treenail-fastened hull and, unless there is a thick coat of paint, you'll have no trouble at all seeing them. But take a look at photos of the decks of museum ships and you will often have to peer closely to see any fastenings at all. They don't form a noticeable aspect of the overall impression. (Granted, many surviving ships have deck planking bolted to steel, with wooden plugs over the bolt heads, but the end effect isn't so different from a treenail.) That's just an effect of a more-distant viewpoint.

 

At typical model scales, it would likely be more realistic to display smooth planking, without visible fastenings. But all ship models are stylized and if someone likes a visible treenail pattern, that's just a personal preference.

 

Trevor

[Kenchington]

3 minutes ago, Y.T. said:

One more from Victory deck

Y.T. proved the point while I was typing!

[druxey]

Actually, there are nails securing the planking to the beams, and those are wood plugs over the nail heads, not treenails.

[DGraley]

Thanks everyone.

[Jim Lad]

Sorry I'm late to this thread. I thought this photo might be of interest. Part of the hull of the 1864 barque 'City of Adelaide' undergoing preservation at Port Adelaide in South Australia. She doesn't have treenails, rather plugs over bolts as the planks are bolted to the iron frames. Some of the plugs have dropped out, but many remain in place, so I thought it interesting, nevertheless.

 

John

 

[Y.T.]

I cannot see any of treenails on today's Victory hull on this photo. Looks more like some nails heads. I can see some on the other pics. None would be seen under the paint and at 1:96 scale.

 

 

 

[Dr PR]

For what it is worth, on mid 20th century US Navy ships with wooden decks the planks were laid over steel decks, with short stub bolts welded to the deck (it was really nasty trying to walk on that deck after the planks were removed for replacement). The planks had small diameter holes half way through to fit over the bolts, with a larger diameter hole above that for the nut. Caulking was hammered around the nut and a wooden plug was hammered into the hole over the nut.

 

The blueprints specified that the wooden plugs be cut from the same type wood as the planks, perpendicular to the lengthwise grain of the planks. This left the "side view" of the wood grain exposed on the ends of the plugs, and not the "end view". When the plugs were installed the grain on the top of the plug was to be aligned with the grain in the planks to make the plugs as invisible as possible. So the intent was to hide the plugs. You could see the plugs if you were standing directly over them, but they were invisible from one or two decks above.

 

I suspect this same technique was used in the 19th century to bolt planks to steel ribbed hulls.

 

However, trenails were cut with the grain, so the end grain is visible and distinct from the grain of the planks. Even so, on freshly cleaned (holystoned) decks the trenails would not have been visible from more than a few tens of feet (several meters).

[DGraley]

After reading all of this great information, I am now inclined to not bother with treenails on the HMS Bounty kit I'm currently building.

[druxey]

It's more realistic to omit them on a deck, especially at scale. There was a time when modelmakers used to treenail all their decks (about 20 to 50 years ago) and it became a fashion that has been followed to this day. (I was guilty of this with my early models!)

Edited Saturday at 11:46 AM by druxey