Talos

Interesting timing bringing this topic back up. Thanks to a power outage last night due to Hurricane Michael, I just finished Intrepid Sailors: The Legacy of Preble's Boys and the Tripoli Campaign by Chipp Reid last night. Enterprise features prominently in the book so the little schooner has been on my mind again. Hmmm.

Indeed, the Cruizer-class brig-sloop and even the tiny Archer-class gunbrig both have capstans at least, otherwise even the smallest vessel should have a windlass at least.

Not sure if it will have hull lines, but you'll want to get this book. I have the other books in the series and they're spectacular. https://www.amazon.com/French-Battleships-World-War-One/dp/1591146399

Pretty much rigged the same as it had been before. The biggest shift in broadside guns (besides the newer guns themselves) was the shift from the old-style four-wheel truck carriage to the two-wheeled Marsilly carriage before the war. This design meant they could shove a wheeled handspike under the rear of the gun and easily rotate even a big gun like a large Dahlgren from side to side in the port or even move it from one side of the ship like the other. They could also be mounted on pivot carriages as well of course. Here is a great shot of a Dahlgren in a Marsilly carriage, this one mounted on the deck of USS Hunchback, a converted ferry. The older-style truck carriage was still around too though, as seen here on the USS Thomas Freeborn. There are plenty of photographs, drawings, gunnery manuals, and ordnance instructions from the period. Certainly enough to know for sure.

Indeed. Independence, the worst of the first generation American '74s, was said to be totally useless at sea because her lower gunports were only 3'10" from the water amidship when fully loaded with cannons, ammunition, and six months of provisions. There's zero way Victory was less than a foot higher than this when launched empty! Independence /did/ have to sail with her lower ports caulked shut during her time overseas too, Victory never had to. For something of the size of a frigate or ship of the line, water coming in over the bow wasn't a major issue. It was for the small open-decked sloops and brigs however. Indeed, the Cherokee-class brigs were often likened to a rock at half-tide because the water kept coming onto the deck in any kind of weather. There were attempts to rectify it, including the Cherokees having a slight upwards kink at the bow, and other sloops like the Cruizers adding in a forecastle platform both to cut down on the water coming in over the deck as well as provide a better area for the sail handlers to work from (and I presume better for handling the anchors too). That's why you'll see plenty of sloops with a forecastle but no quarterdeck. One of the modifications to the Cherokee-class HMS Beagle when she was refit into an exploration ship was to install a low forecastle platform specifically to cut down on the water coming in over the bow. It was only a few feet above deck level, so useless for doing much under it.

I'm not sure. It's from the collection of the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich and only described in generic terms, the only other info is that it's from the late 18th century (I'd say into the early 19th century even), which fits the fittings, the mizzen spanker, and lack of forecastle bulwarks. http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/112664.html I did notice the sweep ports between the gunports, which are rarely seen in depictions of frigates this large and this late.

He specifically asked about three-deckers cut down to two-deckers, not two-deckers cut down to frigates. Now there were proposals to cut down Pennsylvania into a two-decker. In an 1845 pamphlet called "The Big Guns" by a guy with a total 68-pdr fetish, he proposed cutting down Pennsylvania to a 100-gun 68-pdr ship with a double broadside of 6800 pounds, compared to 140 32-pdrs equal to 4480 pounds. He also proposed replacing the armament of the other ships, 60 guns in the 74s, 30 guns in the large frigates, 18 guns in the razee sloops, 14 in the large sloops, 12 and 10 in the smaller sloops, etc, etc. Doesn't specify if it's the 63cwt Paixhans gun or more like the British 68-pdr of 95cwt (the US Navy has their own version of this, the 64-pounder shot gun of 106cwt). He also advocated building 60-gun two-decker frigates displacing 2600 tons, and 30-gun sloops displacing 1300 tons. https://play.google.com/store/books/details?id=yK1WAAAAcAAJ A foot is way too low to the water. Even Vasa had more! Victory had over four feet, one foot would mean the lower gundeck itself would be below the waterline (it's about two feet below the lower sill of the gunport). Waists were covered up by canvas all the way back to Elizabethan times (1500s). Though not filled in, you can see the waist racks for the hammocks that would be covered in canvas in the center of this frigate painting from the 1700s. There were lifelines sailors could rig to help stay on deck as well.

There are also the five broadened Caledonia-class 1st rates that were cut down to 89 gun two-deckers when they were converted into screw steamers in 1858. HMS Neptune HMS Trafalgar HMS Saint George HMS Waterloo HMS Royal William (never commissioned as a steamer, but was converted) HMS London got the same, cut down from a 120-gun first rate to an 89-gun steamer. HMS Royal Frederick of the Queen-class was as well. HMS Prince Regent (converted to a 92-gun sailing ship in the 1840s) HMS Boyne (cut down to a 76-gun third rate in the 1820s) HMS Ocean (cut down to an 80-gun third rate in 1820) HMS Windsor Castle (cut down to 74 in 1813) HMS Atlas (cut down to 74 in 1802)

But an important name! And above the waterline apparently not too far apart from the evolved form of the original ship, as de Kay comments in his "Chronicles of the Frigate Macedonian" about an older British gentleman living in the US who came aboard the ship during a port call on her first commission. He had been a sailor on the original British ship under John Carden and stayed in the US after his capture by Decatur. He told the American sailors stories about his service on her, pointed out his duty station, etc. The more I look at it, the more I think that she wasn't built to the original ship's dimensions but instead built to the standard US 2nd class frigate dimensions of the time, eg: Congress and Constellation. She was rated and armed exactly as Constellation was anyway and they are only a foot apart in beam and /six inches/ apart in length. They were fairly close to the original ship's dimensions anyway, so not a huge difference. It makes sense that they would build to their class standards instead of arbitrarily making one eight to ten feet shorter just to match the older vessel. No one's going to notice that it's different, it's not like they upscaled her to a 1st class frigate. What's more interesting to me is everyone I've read (Chapelle, etc) comments that the change in dimensions was because she had longer, narrower clipper-style ends for speed, but looking at the lines compared to each other... Interestingly, Constellation's replacement was built to the dimensions of a razee frigate...Cumberland in this case, except a lot narrower (five feet less beam, just about the same length). She was just a purpose-built, lighter, more optimized version of it. Had she been a true razee or kept to the original's dimensions, she would have been the exact same dimensions as Macedonian instead of being twelve feet longer. It reminds me that I was recently going through the length/width ratios of the American ships of that era, looking at proportions and trying to figure out a sweet spot for a 3rd class frigate (as mentioned below). Jamestown stuck out at me. Three inches narrower than Saratoga, but 17 feet longer (163 feet to 146.3 feet). Highest ratio I found in the American ships I was looking at (pretty much all the frigates ever, plus the post-war 1st and 2nd class ship-sloops). There's some similarities in basic hull forms, of course, but pretty different. Designed by the same guy in roughly the same time period. Definitely a more modern hullform compared to the earlier 1st class frigate designs though, but an evolution instead of a huge difference. Congress is also the 1st class to Macedonian's 2nd class. I've had a mind to come up with my own design for a 3rd class frigate equivalent too, a follow-on to ships like Boston just for fun.

Was meaning to finish this up and post it, but here's a lines comparison of the two Macedonian's bow and stern lines. I scaled them the same since there's only a foot difference between the two. They're lined up at the top of the keel and the widest points on both are in the same place. HMS Macedonian is in red and the later USS Macedonian in blue. I don't know if the USS Macedonian's fore/aft lines are compressed vertically or not in the book, it seems shorter in this comparison. Still, the hull forms seem to be very different, especially for a pair of ships said to have nearly identical offsets (with the Americans copying the original ship to make a near-replica of it). HMS Macedonian is very typical British frigate of the Napoleonic Wars, while the hull shape of the American ship is very evocative of other ships of the era on both sides of the Atlantic, higher deadrise, straight floors, etc.

I don't think they could mount them on the gundeck. That would be just above the water line and way too close to open in any kind of weather. I think if purchased it would more likely get the sides built-up and used as an open-decked sloop like the aforementioned Maryland and Patapsco. That whole raised/sunken quarterdeck cabin thing, where it is in between the main deck and gun deck, is so merchant-y too. Not a typical warship and an enigma.

That plan's always been a weird one. It's basically a merchant-style vessel (but much more heavily-armed) with that unarmed cargo deck and the quarterdeck cabin mounted like that. Really is an oddball in Chapelle's book.

It's entirely possible. I'll throw together a comparison of their lines later. I should note that Silverstone rates Merrimack as a 24-gunner, with a 9-pdr main battery of 20 guns and 8 x 6-pdrs on the quarterdeck/forecastle. Both could fit that ship. EDIT: The 460 ton figure Silverstone gives for Merrimack are also similar to RN 20-gun ships in Winfield like the Sphinx class of 1773.

Wait, that's supposed to be the Adams? It seems rather small for that, 106' LBP and only 20 guns... I've always thought it was a neat plan though. Like an American equivalent to a British post ship. The details also remind me of those of the John Adams. Chapelle describes the plan as being lost after he copied it, I wonder if it's since been found again.

Thanks, Gerald. I hope you like it. Your threads on Constellation and Macedonian (I) were really great. I've always been interested in this ship and she gets a short-shift and overshadowed by the original British frigate and then the razee'd sloop. Even books like de Kay's Chronicles of the Frigate Macedonian don't speak very highly of her. One thing I'm still trying to find is a source for the "original intended armament" of 32-pdrs and 24-pdr carronades before she received the same 18-pdr armament as Constellation. Chapelle and a few other authors talk about it. Sean

This is a preview for a thread I'll write on the frigate Macedonian (II) sometime. I liked how it came out, so I couldn't resist posting it. It's an overlay of Chapelle's plans for Macedonian before and after she was cut down and there's some interesting changes and similarities. The frigate is in green, the sloop in purple. Changes: Head reshaped and extended, bowsprit rake changed, reshaped stem Gun deck gunports reduced from 15 to 13, ports at the bow, stern, and amidships are in the same place Foremast relocated aft, rake of masts adjusted New rudder Bulwarks cut down, of course New quarter galleries (not drawn yet, plan was lacking them, will used Sloop Constellation's old galleries as a base) Higher waterline despite the reduced upper works (Not visible) Removal of additional heavy timbering bow reinforcement for Antarctic use during US Exploring Expedition, probably source of her sailing issues Macedonian was a 2nd-class frigate and carried the same armament as Constellation. Before the new-generation 32-pdr standardization of the 1840s, it was: Gun deck: 28 x 18-pdrs (8', 38cwt) Spar deck: 2 x 18-pdrs (9'2", 40cwt), 16 x 32-pdr carronades (4'1", 21cwt) Total 1480cwt Afterwards it was: Gun deck: 4 x 8" shell guns (8'4", 53cwt), 22 x 32-pdrs (8', 42cwt) (this armament requires either filled bridle ports or a permanent filling of the stern ports) Spar deck: 2 x 8" shell guns (8'4", 53cwt), 8 x 32-pdr carronades (4'1", 21cwt) Total 1410cwt

From what I've seen, 1st cutter was usually the largest of the cutters. 1st as in best and biggest, in the same way the best bower anchor is the biggest one. It appears like that in the various later boat dimensions listed in Chapelle from the post-war Navy.

Sure, got plenty of stuff on Pawnee. That plan is later in the war when she had a broadside battery. As-built she had four x XI-inch Dahlgren cannons on pivot mounts, two on either side of the ship. She had a very unusual hull as you can see, but one of the most unusual parts is missing from that plan, but I've seen it in others with the original pivots. The keel is actually recessed inwards with a concave hull shape down there. If you have Canney's The Old Steam Navy vol 1, it's in there on page 84. As for pics.... How will these do for now?

Actually, Wasp (and Syren and Argus) were all brigs. Wasp and Hornet were converted to ship-rigs and then of course the follow-on Wasp and Argus-types were all ship-rigged.

Chapelle mentions in that book that ship sloops in the War of 1812 usually carried 4-6 boats and brigs 3-4. He doesn't go into more detail than that, unfortunately. It's halfway down page 504 at the end of the entry on USS President's boats in 1806.

Aww, thanks. Year is still young though! Hopefully we can keep at it. I think threads like this have been good for scholarship of antebellum US Navy ships in general. I know I've learned a lot in it. I was thinking of Constitution's modern stern and that flattened arch on it again. Such a weird shape. Looking through plans in Chapelle, I noticed it popping up in a bunch of proposed smaller ships in the early 1830s, as well as the Boxers and possibly Peacock's rebuild as well.

On the real ships, there is usually a hole up through the top called a "lubber's hole" that no self-respecting sailor would use. Instead they climb out on shrouds that extend outwards to the edge of the top (yes, with their backs pointing down at the sea), and hoist themselves up.

Yep, that too! I wanted to see how it looked complete, so I threw the fullsize TIFF of the stern drawing into Photoshop. I hadn't notice the arrows the eagle is standing on. Also here is Chapelle's take on Wasp/Hornet as well for comparison.

I'm inclined to agree with you on both parts. With the latter, probably the only reason this survived is Latrobe probably had it in his personal files when he relocated to Pittsburgh before DC was burned, and after that it was kept with the other Architect of the Capital files instead of being sent to the naval archives. The wartime classes were probably a lot plainer, but still decorated. The plans we have for Wasp/Hornet are already more detailed than most, both in hull and spars. Now you add this on top along with Hornet's figurehead and tail-boards...

Glad you like the view! There were 17 states in 1811 since Ohio entered the union in 1803. That didn't last long, as Louisiana became a state in 1812. From the catalog entry: Inscriptions on recto: "Design for the Stern of the Sloop of War Hornet" "History" "Young" "Apollo" " Knowledge" "Cloathes." On the smaller, but zoomed-in scan, you can see the original locations of the stars easier, as well as some penciled in detail on the panel next to the eagle (look at that 3d eagle's head!). http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/cph.3a05394/