Talos

Chapelle mentions in that book that ship sloops in the War of 1812 usually carried 4-6 boats and brigs 3-4. He doesn't go into more detail than that, unfortunately. It's halfway down page 504 at the end of the entry on USS President's boats in 1806.

Sure, got plenty of stuff on Pawnee. That plan is later in the war when she had a broadside battery. As-built she had four x XI-inch Dahlgren cannons on pivot mounts, two on either side of the ship. She had a very unusual hull as you can see, but one of the most unusual parts is missing from that plan, but I've seen it in others with the original pivots. The keel is actually recessed inwards with a concave hull shape down there. If you have Canney's The Old Steam Navy vol 1, it's in there on page 84.
 
As for pics....

How will these do for now?

Sure, got plenty of stuff on Pawnee. That plan is later in the war when she had a broadside battery. As-built she had four x XI-inch Dahlgren cannons on pivot mounts, two on either side of the ship. She had a very unusual hull as you can see, but one of the most unusual parts is missing from that plan, but I've seen it in others with the original pivots. The keel is actually recessed inwards with a concave hull shape down there. If you have Canney's The Old Steam Navy vol 1, it's in there on page 84.
 
As for pics....

How will these do for now?

Sure, got plenty of stuff on Pawnee. That plan is later in the war when she had a broadside battery. As-built she had four x XI-inch Dahlgren cannons on pivot mounts, two on either side of the ship. She had a very unusual hull as you can see, but one of the most unusual parts is missing from that plan, but I've seen it in others with the original pivots. The keel is actually recessed inwards with a concave hull shape down there. If you have Canney's The Old Steam Navy vol 1, it's in there on page 84.
 
As for pics....

How will these do for now?

Actually, Wasp (and Syren and Argus) were all brigs. Wasp and Hornet were converted to ship-rigs and then of course the follow-on Wasp and Argus-types were all ship-rigged.

Chapelle mentions in that book that ship sloops in the War of 1812 usually carried 4-6 boats and brigs 3-4. He doesn't go into more detail than that, unfortunately. It's halfway down page 504 at the end of the entry on USS President's boats in 1806.

Actually, Wasp (and Syren and Argus) were all brigs. Wasp and Hornet were converted to ship-rigs and then of course the follow-on Wasp and Argus-types were all ship-rigged.

Chapelle mentions in that book that ship sloops in the War of 1812 usually carried 4-6 boats and brigs 3-4. He doesn't go into more detail than that, unfortunately. It's halfway down page 504 at the end of the entry on USS President's boats in 1806.

Aww, thanks. Year is still young though! Hopefully we can keep at it. I think threads like this have been good for scholarship of antebellum US Navy ships in general. I know I've learned a lot in it.
 
I was thinking of Constitution's modern stern and that flattened arch on it again. Such a weird shape. Looking through plans in Chapelle, I noticed it popping up in a bunch of proposed smaller ships in the early 1830s, as well as the Boxers and possibly Peacock's rebuild as well.

Aww, thanks. Year is still young though! Hopefully we can keep at it. I think threads like this have been good for scholarship of antebellum US Navy ships in general. I know I've learned a lot in it.
 
I was thinking of Constitution's modern stern and that flattened arch on it again. Such a weird shape. Looking through plans in Chapelle, I noticed it popping up in a bunch of proposed smaller ships in the early 1830s, as well as the Boxers and possibly Peacock's rebuild as well.

On the real ships, there is usually a hole up through the top called a "lubber's hole" that no self-respecting sailor would use.
 
Instead they climb out on shrouds that extend outwards to the edge of the top (yes, with their backs pointing down at the sea), and hoist themselves up.
 

Yep, that too!
 
I wanted to see how it looked complete, so I threw the fullsize TIFF of the stern drawing into Photoshop. I hadn't notice the arrows the eagle is standing on. Also here is Chapelle's take on Wasp/Hornet as well for comparison.
 
 

I'm inclined to agree with you on both parts. With the latter, probably the only reason this survived is Latrobe probably had it in his personal files when he relocated to Pittsburgh before DC was burned, and after that it was kept with the other Architect of the Capital files instead of being sent to the naval archives.
 
The wartime classes were probably a lot plainer, but still decorated. The plans we have for Wasp/Hornet are already more detailed than most, both in hull and spars. Now you add this on top along with Hornet's figurehead and tail-boards...

On the real ships, there is usually a hole up through the top called a "lubber's hole" that no self-respecting sailor would use.
 
Instead they climb out on shrouds that extend outwards to the edge of the top (yes, with their backs pointing down at the sea), and hoist themselves up.
 

Aww, thanks. Year is still young though! Hopefully we can keep at it. I think threads like this have been good for scholarship of antebellum US Navy ships in general. I know I've learned a lot in it.
 
I was thinking of Constitution's modern stern and that flattened arch on it again. Such a weird shape. Looking through plans in Chapelle, I noticed it popping up in a bunch of proposed smaller ships in the early 1830s, as well as the Boxers and possibly Peacock's rebuild as well.

Aww, thanks. Year is still young though! Hopefully we can keep at it. I think threads like this have been good for scholarship of antebellum US Navy ships in general. I know I've learned a lot in it.
 
I was thinking of Constitution's modern stern and that flattened arch on it again. Such a weird shape. Looking through plans in Chapelle, I noticed it popping up in a bunch of proposed smaller ships in the early 1830s, as well as the Boxers and possibly Peacock's rebuild as well.

I nominate Talos for the "Best Naval Historical Find Of The Year Award"!
 
Huzzah!

Yep, that too!
 
I wanted to see how it looked complete, so I threw the fullsize TIFF of the stern drawing into Photoshop. I hadn't notice the arrows the eagle is standing on. Also here is Chapelle's take on Wasp/Hornet as well for comparison.
 
 

On the real ships, there is usually a hole up through the top called a "lubber's hole" that no self-respecting sailor would use.
 
Instead they climb out on shrouds that extend outwards to the edge of the top (yes, with their backs pointing down at the sea), and hoist themselves up.
 

I found those on the Library of Congress' website, under "Sloop Hornet". The entry here lists Benjamin Lathrobe as the architect for it.
 
Here is the entry. You can download a higher resolution TIFF there. http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/95860806/
 
I also found this model frigate held by a Seamen's Bank in New York City. Dunno what she's supposed to be. Too many ports to be HMS Cyane or USS Boston. Could be New York? The half-built-up bulwarks are interesting. EDIT: Here is the link. Could be British of course, but... https://www.loc.gov/item/gsc1994004940/PP/
 
5a23235u.tif

Yep, that too!
 
I wanted to see how it looked complete, so I threw the fullsize TIFF of the stern drawing into Photoshop. I hadn't notice the arrows the eagle is standing on. Also here is Chapelle's take on Wasp/Hornet as well for comparison.
 
 

Yep, that too!
 
I wanted to see how it looked complete, so I threw the fullsize TIFF of the stern drawing into Photoshop. I hadn't notice the arrows the eagle is standing on. Also here is Chapelle's take on Wasp/Hornet as well for comparison.
 
 

A bit different, but clearly taken from the same inspiration. I was just looking at the stern photograph from the 1874 refit and an internal profile of her modern stern, and compared them to Guerriere's and the Royal Navy's "as captured" arrangement drawing of President. Some things I noticed were the framing differences between the three and the modern stern has framing more like Guerriere's. It also isn't as docked-short and snub-nosed as Guerriere's, but doesn't tilt or have as much overhang as President's. Instead it looks like Guerriere's but tilted more. Looking at the ports, I notice that the spar deck ports look roughly like Guerriere's, but the gun deck ports are the same size as the broadside ports and spaced closer together, putting them out of line with the three spar deck ports. It's weird, almost like two stern designs plastered on top of each other. And you're right, it /does/ look like a five-window stern that way. It's really noticable with the quarter galleries removed in the refit picture.
 
Interesting similiarities and differences. Easy to see the Navy's policy of updating older ships to modern standards though, especially with Constitution being used in active duty well into the Antebellum Period.
 
http://captainsclerk.info/archives/visual/restoration and apprentice training/Image124.gif
https://ussconstitutionmuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Diag-Riders-Model-1024x290.jpg
 
 
 

If it had five windows, I imagine her reconstruction was likely based on Chapelle's.
 

 
Uploading a pair of redrawings I did recently, the proposed 74 from the Revolution. Interesting ship, size-wise she matches up with what the British would call the Large-class. Just for fun, and because I always thought they were interesting (I blame Gardiner's book on Frigates of the Napoleonic Wars), I did a hypothetical razee in that style. The bow and stern are taken from Franklin's "as-built" profile and I think they really capture the same feeling as HMS Saturn's razee. I also recently was reading Millions for Defense, about the subscription frigates, which has me thinking about Boston, John Adams, and ones we don't have plans for. I wonder what we're missing with those ships and which of the "unnamed" plans in Chapelle match up with them, if any.

I'm inclined to agree with you on both parts. With the latter, probably the only reason this survived is Latrobe probably had it in his personal files when he relocated to Pittsburgh before DC was burned, and after that it was kept with the other Architect of the Capital files instead of being sent to the naval archives.
 
The wartime classes were probably a lot plainer, but still decorated. The plans we have for Wasp/Hornet are already more detailed than most, both in hull and spars. Now you add this on top along with Hornet's figurehead and tail-boards...