Gerhardvienna

Beneath the studys about the second auxiliary engine and the 12 pounder I made another gun barrel ready for 3D printing. This time is was the Rifled Army 42 pounder, 3 required for the model.

 
Regards, and many thanks for watching
Gerhard

Hi Roger
 
In addition to the books you mentioned (I have them both downloaded months ago...), i found another one, which shows the carriage for the 12-pounder best in side view:
http://www.civilwarnavy.org/?page_id=321
 
Best Regards
Gerhard

Are you sure that the capstan was steam driven?  With large navy crews could the capstan have been manned by hand.  We're steam driven Capstans used on the rivers in the 1860's?
 
The Smaller caliber Dhalgren boat howitzers were designed to arm boats (especially launches) in support of amphibious operations, a requirement stemming from the earlier Mexican War where the navy was required to land troops and lacked an effective light weight artillery piece.  The idea was to mount the gun in the bow to be able to fire it while approaching the shore and to then quickly dismount it and to remount it on the field carriage that had been carried separately in the boat's stern sheets.  The field carriage was to be wheeled ashore over a ramp formed by extending timbers from the boat's bow.  The "sledge" that you refer to is the mounting for use in arming the boat. Most photos show these boat howitzers on iron field carriages when aboard ship.  My Dixie Gun Works materials which are copies of the original drawings apply to the light 12 pound howitzer and depict a "hybred" field carriage- iron and bronze except the two main wheels which are wooden.  The small tail wheel is iron.
 
The best reference that I can recommend that covers Civil War naval artillery is "Arming the Fleet" by Spencer Tucker.  You can also download a copy of a Civil War US Navy Ordinance Manual    on line from google books.
 
Roger

Hi johnhoward
 
Found both books by googlesearch, interesting things to learn for me. As I have learned more in the past few days than in years before! So the doctor should be built in but  turned 90deg. not as Gene Bodnar did show it in his Cairo model: http://www.modelshipbuilder.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?5406.60
When there was no power assisted steering, the other auxiliary engine will have one reason only, to assist the capstan? If we (or you) can find out, where to locate this second auxiliary engine, I will make it too, just for the reason it was there!
 
Regards
Gerhard

Hi johnhoward
 
Thats what I found out by scaling the drawings to same measure. The so called auxiliary engine would have been far larger than the driving engime. I thought, that the auxiliary engine could have driven the capstan and MAYBE the steering, as it was done on different (german) river tugboats, while the Main Auxiliary Engine  "the Doctor", was used for filling the water boiler. If that scond auxiliary engine was used for steering too, this could declare the giant size of it. But in the drawings I did not find any hint for that!
So there is a lot more to find out how they have built the ship, and how they managed to steer it! The fire room did probably not have enough space for an extra engine, so the place of it could have been "around"  the Doctor, or at one side of the vessel in height of the capstan. The plansheet I`ve shown before shows the top view of the engine, there you can see a rod to port side of the engine, but unfortunatly not further parts of it. So we will have to speculate, how the parts we know did work together, and what parts are missing! To illustrate what i mean I`ve made a little sketch fron the auxiliary engine with the Doctor as a simple square set in.

 
Best Regards &Thank you for your worthful help!
Gerhard

Hi johnhoward
So I could go with the carriage from post #151 exept the lighter wheels. Measures are good to see in the markerhunters article https://markerhunter.wordpress.com/2011/01/17/dahlgren-12-pdr-small-bh/
Many thanks for your help!
And another request too..............
In the plans from Vicksburg I could see, that there were a Two Cylinder steam engine named " Auxiliary engine". Wher the he..... was this built in, location was shown as unknown, whe I followe the plans!

 
Regards
Gerhard

Johnhoward
 
When I compare that pics to the photo from the Vicksburg museum entrance, I`m not sure what carriage they used for the 12 pounder. Could be possible too that there was a wodden carriage similar to the sledgelike boat carriage in your post above. Does anyone live near Vicksburg who could take a close look (and photo) from that entrance poster?
Sad that it`s  such a long way from Vienna/Austria/Europe to the museum
 
Regards
Gerhard
 
 

Hi Roger
 
Took a look at them now, good stuff for research, maybe I`ll order some of them! Thank you for advise!
 
Regards
Gerhard

Hi Gerald
 
By watching the photo I posted on the previous page, I`m sure that the CAIRO 12 pounder had the Naval Field Carriage. Thank you for bringing a bit more of clearness to this part of the ship, most useful pictures! All necessary measures can be measured otu from the pics for a good model, so I can start with the smallest Cairo gun too.
 
Best regards
Gerhard

Hi johnhoward
 
Found both books by googlesearch, interesting things to learn for me. As I have learned more in the past few days than in years before! So the doctor should be built in but  turned 90deg. not as Gene Bodnar did show it in his Cairo model: http://www.modelshipbuilder.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?5406.60
When there was no power assisted steering, the other auxiliary engine will have one reason only, to assist the capstan? If we (or you) can find out, where to locate this second auxiliary engine, I will make it too, just for the reason it was there!
 
Regards
Gerhard

Hi johnhoward
 
Found both books by googlesearch, interesting things to learn for me. As I have learned more in the past few days than in years before! So the doctor should be built in but  turned 90deg. not as Gene Bodnar did show it in his Cairo model: http://www.modelshipbuilder.com/e107_plugins/forum/forum_viewtopic.php?5406.60
When there was no power assisted steering, the other auxiliary engine will have one reason only, to assist the capstan? If we (or you) can find out, where to locate this second auxiliary engine, I will make it too, just for the reason it was there!
 
Regards
Gerhard

Hi johnhoward
 
Thats what I found out by scaling the drawings to same measure. The so called auxiliary engine would have been far larger than the driving engime. I thought, that the auxiliary engine could have driven the capstan and MAYBE the steering, as it was done on different (german) river tugboats, while the Main Auxiliary Engine  "the Doctor", was used for filling the water boiler. If that scond auxiliary engine was used for steering too, this could declare the giant size of it. But in the drawings I did not find any hint for that!
So there is a lot more to find out how they have built the ship, and how they managed to steer it! The fire room did probably not have enough space for an extra engine, so the place of it could have been "around"  the Doctor, or at one side of the vessel in height of the capstan. The plansheet I`ve shown before shows the top view of the engine, there you can see a rod to port side of the engine, but unfortunatly not further parts of it. So we will have to speculate, how the parts we know did work together, and what parts are missing! To illustrate what i mean I`ve made a little sketch fron the auxiliary engine with the Doctor as a simple square set in.

 
Best Regards &Thank you for your worthful help!
Gerhard

Hi johnhoward
 
Thats what I found out by scaling the drawings to same measure. The so called auxiliary engine would have been far larger than the driving engime. I thought, that the auxiliary engine could have driven the capstan and MAYBE the steering, as it was done on different (german) river tugboats, while the Main Auxiliary Engine  "the Doctor", was used for filling the water boiler. If that scond auxiliary engine was used for steering too, this could declare the giant size of it. But in the drawings I did not find any hint for that!
So there is a lot more to find out how they have built the ship, and how they managed to steer it! The fire room did probably not have enough space for an extra engine, so the place of it could have been "around"  the Doctor, or at one side of the vessel in height of the capstan. The plansheet I`ve shown before shows the top view of the engine, there you can see a rod to port side of the engine, but unfortunatly not further parts of it. So we will have to speculate, how the parts we know did work together, and what parts are missing! To illustrate what i mean I`ve made a little sketch fron the auxiliary engine with the Doctor as a simple square set in.

 
Best Regards &Thank you for your worthful help!
Gerhard

Hi johnhoward
So I could go with the carriage from post #151 exept the lighter wheels. Measures are good to see in the markerhunters article https://markerhunter.wordpress.com/2011/01/17/dahlgren-12-pdr-small-bh/
Many thanks for your help!
And another request too..............
In the plans from Vicksburg I could see, that there were a Two Cylinder steam engine named " Auxiliary engine". Wher the he..... was this built in, location was shown as unknown, whe I followe the plans!

 
Regards
Gerhard

Paddle wheel inlet.bmp
Gerhard,
The "doctor" engine is a whole different story. Unfortunately the Cairo's "Doctor" although originally found, was later lost in the Yazoo River. The version of the "Doctor" shown on Ashley's plan sheet 27(which I assume you have) is pretty good for making a non-functioning model but appears to be a little fancy for the ironclads. Some version of it was carried in almost every later steamboat for boiler safety. Ashley (and Bob Hill) incorrectly show it mounted lengthwise on the paddlewheel feedwater ramp whereas Meagher's reconstruction correctly shows it mounted athwartship in roughly the same location but forward of the ramp and aft of the boilers, between the main engines. (See: Paddlewheel Section attachment). Ashley's sheet 24 Propulsion System Schematic is also full of errors. A functioning "Doctor" would make an interesting model in itself. Some of the attached text helps explain how the doctor really works.
We haven't found any evidence of power assisted steering on the ironclads. Later on some form of hydraulic power rudder assist was implemented on Western river craft. The traditional steering wheel, drum, and chain or cable linking to the tillers seems to have been used, however the tillers were over 100 feet away from the steering wheel so it appears that some system of taking out backlash must have been used. All sternwheeler steamboats would have a similar problem until some of them moved their rudders forward of their paddlewheels closer to the steering wheel. Whatever the case, the lateral control was notoriously ineffective on the ironclads.
 
 
johnhoward

Paddle wheel inlet.bmp

Gerhard,
We have not been able to find any direct evidence of an auxiliary steam engine being recovered with the USS Cairo but the version shone in Ashley's (Bob Hill's source) 1981 NPS drawing depicts a similar engine he apparently found in the US National Archives and a sketch showing it in the lower casement of the hull (perhaps this is where something was recovered in 1963). However the engine in this sketch would be far to large for capstan power as it is even larger than the engines powering the paddle wheel.
We have found several drawings of mid-1800 steam powered capstans which were provided with US Patent applications which provide a more reasonable scale for this engine which would be more integral with the capstan. 
However, the capstan for the USS Cairo is located directly above the centerline coal bin between the Commissary Stores Room and the Fire Room so the gearing and Auxiliary Steam Engine would most likely have been powered by a remote engine and PTO shaft similar to that shown on the 1981 NPS drawing.
Our reconstruction solution therefore was to install a smaller version of the 1981 NPS drawing Auxiliary Engine in the port side lower casement with its PTO shaft leading to the centerline capstan instead of having an engine in the middle of a coal bin. We have installed a box around the below deck bevel & spur  gearing to isolate it from the coal.  So far we have only mocked up the auxiliary engine but it will simply be a reduced scale version of Ashley drawing. I've attached a few photos which I hope will make this description clear.
 
johnhoward
 
capstan patent(1).bmp

Capstan-Cairo.bmp

Hi johnhoward
So I could go with the carriage from post #151 exept the lighter wheels. Measures are good to see in the markerhunters article https://markerhunter.wordpress.com/2011/01/17/dahlgren-12-pdr-small-bh/
Many thanks for your help!
And another request too..............
In the plans from Vicksburg I could see, that there were a Two Cylinder steam engine named " Auxiliary engine". Wher the he..... was this built in, location was shown as unknown, whe I followe the plans!

 
Regards
Gerhard

Hi johnhoward
So I could go with the carriage from post #151 exept the lighter wheels. Measures are good to see in the markerhunters article https://markerhunter.wordpress.com/2011/01/17/dahlgren-12-pdr-small-bh/
Many thanks for your help!
And another request too..............
In the plans from Vicksburg I could see, that there were a Two Cylinder steam engine named " Auxiliary engine". Wher the he..... was this built in, location was shown as unknown, whe I followe the plans!

 
Regards
Gerhard

Gerhard,
We live in Missouri which is not, too far from Vicksburg, Mississippi and had been planning a trip there to check out other technical details. We were coordinating with the Cairo Museum curator, Elizabeth Joiner, for assistance getting better access to remains than the pure tourists can get. (They need to protect the Cairo remaining fabric from souvenir hunters) However, Mrs. Joiner is no longer the curator and a replacement or technical contact hasn't been identified so any trip has been delayed indefinitely. Bob Hill and 10 members of the Tampa Bay Ship Modelers visited Vicksburg a few years ago and took a lot of photos which were very helpful but I don't recall any of the mural.
One other factor which leads us to favor the lighter carriage is that the original armament originally allocated to these ironclads while under US Army control was a "mixed bag"of the discarded and obsolete ordnance that nobody really wanted. Inter-service rivalry was alive and well. The Cairo was technically under the command of Gen. George McClellan who was stationed nearly 1000 miles away in Virginia and probably never even cared about its operation. The  Navy field carriage usually included ammo boxes and would be more practical for a land assault by Marines which are part of the US Navy. The lightweight carriage could be easily broken down for  storage aboard ship where space is at a premium and would be easier to handle on the cambered Hurricane deck. I suspect that the carriage recovered with the Cairo was actually still in its crate
I can imagine that both carriage versions were in use on some of the seven "City Class" ironclads and we don't really have any specific information on which was on our "USS St. Louis", but the lighter version looks more interesting.
 
johnhoward

sorry to hear of your set back........I hope you can get in there quick and get patched up     fingers crossed for a quick recovery.

Thanks to
Rob, Albert,
an all others for the LIKES.
 
Lately, I've managed not much. So I'll show you just a few pictures.
I hope I can show more again soon.
 

Johnhoward
 
When I compare that pics to the photo from the Vicksburg museum entrance, I`m not sure what carriage they used for the 12 pounder. Could be possible too that there was a wodden carriage similar to the sledgelike boat carriage in your post above. Does anyone live near Vicksburg who could take a close look (and photo) from that entrance poster?
Sad that it`s  such a long way from Vienna/Austria/Europe to the museum
 
Regards
Gerhard
 
 

Hi Gerald
 
By watching the photo I posted on the previous page, I`m sure that the CAIRO 12 pounder had the Naval Field Carriage. Thank you for bringing a bit more of clearness to this part of the ship, most useful pictures! All necessary measures can be measured otu from the pics for a good model, so I can start with the smallest Cairo gun too.
 
Best regards
Gerhard

Johnhoward, Thank you again!
Seems to be this one I found in the meantime by searching at google https://markerhunter.wordpress.com/2011/01/17/dahlgren-12-pdr-small-bh/
As there is a listing of the different measures I will be able to build it correct for the Cairo. Carriage and wheels will be made from brass, the barrel 3D Printed or turned from brass.
Great hint!
 
Regards
Gerhard

Hi johnhoward
 
Great infos about that, thank you!
I`ve never watched this photo so close, but I think I found the 12 - pounder on the hurricane deck of the Cairo....
Source: https://www.nps.gov/vick/learn/historyculture/images/museum-entrance-mural.jpg

Now I have to look for better photos or drawings to make even that gun correct!
 
Best regards
gerhard