Hubac's Historian

Happy Holidays to you and everyone here!

From what I have read, these ships were designed to fight more like castles and early tanks. By that I mean that they were more or less designed to outlast the opponent more than out maneuver them. Therefore I would think that to eliminate as much extra rigging and canvas from getting in the way, anything above the tops would not be needed.
 
I would have thought that this would be an inconvience but the more I read the more impressed I become at how quick and efficient a good crew was at changing a ships rigging. Of course there was more time in the lead up to a battle but even if chance needed to be given, I would think that they could run the gallants up quickly for extra sail and they would be in undamaged unlike the main and top sails which would likely be full of holes.

Happy Holidays to you and everyone here!

Great answer, Dan! Yeah, I wonder also, about one-on-one encounters. I'll have to delve a little deeper!

Happy Holidays to you and everyone here!

Great answer, Dan! Yeah, I wonder also, about one-on-one encounters. I'll have to delve a little deeper!

An open question to the forum:
 
In pouring over all of these images of 17th C. Ships of the line, in battle, it strikes me that the ships are almost always depicted as only carrying their main and topmast courses, even when it is generally known that the ship also carried fore and main t'gallant masts and sails. Was this a particular consideration for battle: less top hamper means less to clear and cut away, in the event of a dismasting? Was it simply the case that the extra sail power and maneuverability were not worth the cost in damage or extra manpower to work the sails, during battle? Just curious. All insight and theories are welcome.

I will definitely be updating my Dremel with a flexi-shaft to rough things in, but I anticipate grinding small scrapers and making a few micro chisels to do the detail work.  In my experience, 90% of carving is about having a good layout to begin with.  It takes surprisingly little to add shape and dimension, as long as the outline of the thing is to scale and a nice profile.  I say go for it!

Well, ordinary life stuff has kept me busy these past two weeks, but I have put in some drawing time.
 
Perhaps the most important carving on the entire model is the tafferal frieze of Apollo and his horse-drawn chariot, riding across the sky.  The Heller kit does a pretty good job of interpreting this detail, and really, it's a shame that I couldn't extricate it from the stock stern plate and glue it onto the new one.  However, it's too tall for the new frieze area, and it's also flat - unlike the round-up I intend to model into my new stern plate.  That all adds up to re-creating the carving from scratch.
 
My initial thought was to do a line tracing directly over Berain's drawing.  When I tried this, however, the background is too dark and muddy to read the lines I want to pick out through vellum.  The trick, here, is to pick out the essential outline of the thing and some of the detail, but leave out the really fine detail that will make our tracing difficult to transfer to the material.  The process of relief carving is one of removing material in layers, and by degree.  For the initial layout, I just need to know the relative sizes of the individual elements, and their relative position to each other.
 
In lieu of a tracing, I opted to map out the maximum area that the Berain drawing of the carving sits within.  With a simple grid, I now had reference points with which to map out the size of the chariot, Apollo himself, the torsos of the horses, etc.
 

 
Berain's drawing shows Apollo's toga blowing, wildly, off his right shoulder and against the framework of his chariot.  I initially tried to include this detail.  I later decided, though, to leave it out on the final re-tracing because it just looked too busy and I was doubtful of my ability to pull off such a vague detail, in such a small scale.
 

 
With this final tracing, I refined the lines, and one can see that the whole business of the chariot is much cleaner and easier for the eye to understand.  Small considerations like the way the Horse's manes appear to blow in the wind add tremendous movement and interest, if time is taken to incorporate some variety into their array.  I played with this for a while until it looked good to me.  The tracing, at it's current size, almost fits the new tafferal area perfectly.  It will, however, need to be re-sized in Corel, which is why I didn't just trace it into it's location on the ship.

I will definitely be updating my Dremel with a flexi-shaft to rough things in, but I anticipate grinding small scrapers and making a few micro chisels to do the detail work.  In my experience, 90% of carving is about having a good layout to begin with.  It takes surprisingly little to add shape and dimension, as long as the outline of the thing is to scale and a nice profile.  I say go for it!

Well, ordinary life stuff has kept me busy these past two weeks, but I have put in some drawing time.
 
Perhaps the most important carving on the entire model is the tafferal frieze of Apollo and his horse-drawn chariot, riding across the sky.  The Heller kit does a pretty good job of interpreting this detail, and really, it's a shame that I couldn't extricate it from the stock stern plate and glue it onto the new one.  However, it's too tall for the new frieze area, and it's also flat - unlike the round-up I intend to model into my new stern plate.  That all adds up to re-creating the carving from scratch.
 
My initial thought was to do a line tracing directly over Berain's drawing.  When I tried this, however, the background is too dark and muddy to read the lines I want to pick out through vellum.  The trick, here, is to pick out the essential outline of the thing and some of the detail, but leave out the really fine detail that will make our tracing difficult to transfer to the material.  The process of relief carving is one of removing material in layers, and by degree.  For the initial layout, I just need to know the relative sizes of the individual elements, and their relative position to each other.
 
In lieu of a tracing, I opted to map out the maximum area that the Berain drawing of the carving sits within.  With a simple grid, I now had reference points with which to map out the size of the chariot, Apollo himself, the torsos of the horses, etc.
 

 
Berain's drawing shows Apollo's toga blowing, wildly, off his right shoulder and against the framework of his chariot.  I initially tried to include this detail.  I later decided, though, to leave it out on the final re-tracing because it just looked too busy and I was doubtful of my ability to pull off such a vague detail, in such a small scale.
 

 
With this final tracing, I refined the lines, and one can see that the whole business of the chariot is much cleaner and easier for the eye to understand.  Small considerations like the way the Horse's manes appear to blow in the wind add tremendous movement and interest, if time is taken to incorporate some variety into their array.  I played with this for a while until it looked good to me.  The tracing, at it's current size, almost fits the new tafferal area perfectly.  It will, however, need to be re-sized in Corel, which is why I didn't just trace it into it's location on the ship.

Well, ordinary life stuff has kept me busy these past two weeks, but I have put in some drawing time.
 
Perhaps the most important carving on the entire model is the tafferal frieze of Apollo and his horse-drawn chariot, riding across the sky.  The Heller kit does a pretty good job of interpreting this detail, and really, it's a shame that I couldn't extricate it from the stock stern plate and glue it onto the new one.  However, it's too tall for the new frieze area, and it's also flat - unlike the round-up I intend to model into my new stern plate.  That all adds up to re-creating the carving from scratch.
 
My initial thought was to do a line tracing directly over Berain's drawing.  When I tried this, however, the background is too dark and muddy to read the lines I want to pick out through vellum.  The trick, here, is to pick out the essential outline of the thing and some of the detail, but leave out the really fine detail that will make our tracing difficult to transfer to the material.  The process of relief carving is one of removing material in layers, and by degree.  For the initial layout, I just need to know the relative sizes of the individual elements, and their relative position to each other.
 
In lieu of a tracing, I opted to map out the maximum area that the Berain drawing of the carving sits within.  With a simple grid, I now had reference points with which to map out the size of the chariot, Apollo himself, the torsos of the horses, etc.
 

 
Berain's drawing shows Apollo's toga blowing, wildly, off his right shoulder and against the framework of his chariot.  I initially tried to include this detail.  I later decided, though, to leave it out on the final re-tracing because it just looked too busy and I was doubtful of my ability to pull off such a vague detail, in such a small scale.
 

 
With this final tracing, I refined the lines, and one can see that the whole business of the chariot is much cleaner and easier for the eye to understand.  Small considerations like the way the Horse's manes appear to blow in the wind add tremendous movement and interest, if time is taken to incorporate some variety into their array.  I played with this for a while until it looked good to me.  The tracing, at it's current size, almost fits the new tafferal area perfectly.  It will, however, need to be re-sized in Corel, which is why I didn't just trace it into it's location on the ship.

Well, ordinary life stuff has kept me busy these past two weeks, but I have put in some drawing time.
 
Perhaps the most important carving on the entire model is the tafferal frieze of Apollo and his horse-drawn chariot, riding across the sky.  The Heller kit does a pretty good job of interpreting this detail, and really, it's a shame that I couldn't extricate it from the stock stern plate and glue it onto the new one.  However, it's too tall for the new frieze area, and it's also flat - unlike the round-up I intend to model into my new stern plate.  That all adds up to re-creating the carving from scratch.
 
My initial thought was to do a line tracing directly over Berain's drawing.  When I tried this, however, the background is too dark and muddy to read the lines I want to pick out through vellum.  The trick, here, is to pick out the essential outline of the thing and some of the detail, but leave out the really fine detail that will make our tracing difficult to transfer to the material.  The process of relief carving is one of removing material in layers, and by degree.  For the initial layout, I just need to know the relative sizes of the individual elements, and their relative position to each other.
 
In lieu of a tracing, I opted to map out the maximum area that the Berain drawing of the carving sits within.  With a simple grid, I now had reference points with which to map out the size of the chariot, Apollo himself, the torsos of the horses, etc.
 

 
Berain's drawing shows Apollo's toga blowing, wildly, off his right shoulder and against the framework of his chariot.  I initially tried to include this detail.  I later decided, though, to leave it out on the final re-tracing because it just looked too busy and I was doubtful of my ability to pull off such a vague detail, in such a small scale.
 

 
With this final tracing, I refined the lines, and one can see that the whole business of the chariot is much cleaner and easier for the eye to understand.  Small considerations like the way the Horse's manes appear to blow in the wind add tremendous movement and interest, if time is taken to incorporate some variety into their array.  I played with this for a while until it looked good to me.  The tracing, at it's current size, almost fits the new tafferal area perfectly.  It will, however, need to be re-sized in Corel, which is why I didn't just trace it into it's location on the ship.

Hi Matt! I'm new to the site, but I've been perusing build logs and your work here on the Latham is truly stunning. The treenailing really came off well without appearing over-wrought. And your deck furniture is wonderfully detailed but just softened enough to look like a real work boat. Very impressed!

So on to another update. I have been building the main mast and top this week. Wood construction is now done and I am ready to start adding the blocks, dead eyes and other bits of the rigging before stepping the mast in permanently. I also cut the mizzen mast to length and set it in place without glue just to see how she would look with all three of her masts in place.

Main mast is built and stepped in place. Built the two pin rails for the main mast rigging and started running shrouds. This set is going a bit better and slightly faster than the foremast set. Now instead of a full hour for a pair of shrouds it's maybe 50 minutes! I guess that means I have learned something...
 
My plan is to finish up with the shrouds and the main fore stay and then I will switch builds back to SR for a little while. I like having two ships going at the same time. It allows me to set smaller checkpoints to reach and then switch to the other build instead of having to finish the entire ship before switching. It is definitely keeping me seated in the ship yard longer although, when you consider that La Couronne just hit 670 hours in a little over 10 months, I think I have been plenty busy...
 
Ok, enough talking enjoy the pictures!

Looking good, so far, EJ!  I'm in for your build.

Great looking build, EJ! The planking looks incredible - very nicely done!

Yes, discovering Pinterest was like fuel on a fire for me.  It just exposed me to such a broad spectrum of original 17th C. ship artwork, schematics, models as well as contemporary models and full-size replicas - a few of which I have even worked on, personally.
 
I have a few ship blogs.  There's also Navies of Other Euro Nations, for everything else that wasn't specifically French.

Well, EJ, I scanned through Vaisseaus Du Roi Soleil several times, and could not find it - although, I'm sure it's in there somewhere.  For now, you'll have to do with the much smaller version (and poor iPhone photo-quality) from Designs:
 

 
In any event, it gives some sense for the paneling and general affect that would be appropriate in the aft cabins of a ship like SR.
 
Here are a few pics of the Royal Louis of 1692, 1/100 scratch-build.  Given the complicated nature of the carved ornament, I think this builder did a really exceptional job of using what I assume is polymerized clay.  He mentions, on the site where this appears, that he was breaking with his usual method and experimenting with "clay."  Really great work!!
 

Also, EJ, I was wondering what your choice for third 17th C. ship would be and I think RL, 1692 is the perfect choice, as it is so well documented with a contemporary model.  I recently found a really wonderful scratch build of RL, which I posted to my Pinterest Page, under my screen name Tafferal.  The blog is French Vaisseaus.  The model is 1/100 scale, and interestingly, he modeled ALL of the decoration with polymerized clay, and the results are really spectacular. Check it out, if you have a chance!

Hi Dan, thank you!  Yes, I know what you are saying about the placement of that window.  It's in line with the quarter deck guns.  Those are round port guns, however, and the window is furnished with mullions.  Interestingly, the color rendering of the ship shows two octagonal ports above the quarter deck guns.  Perhaps, this is Heller's halfway compromise to adding another piercing to the hull.  I will keep this a window port, as opposed to a gunport, as this additional small window is a common feature among 17th C. warships of all nations.
 
EJ - you are in luck!  I have in my possession, what was either the proposed decor of the three aft cabins of SR, or in fact, the actual decor.  It is contained in my book by J.C. Lemineur, Les Vaisseaus Du Roi Soleil.  I will try to take a decent picture of this later and upload it, here.  By the way, the same schematic is re-produced in the Admiral Paris, Dessins, 3rd Edition - albeit, much smaller and of a lower print quality.  
 
I was impressed with your build of Couronne.  I got to page 3, on my phone, and thought that was the whole log, so I started to comment.  After I posted, of course, the other 16 pages came up.  I'll be looking at that more, in depth, later.  Great build!

EJ, I'm so glad you stopped in to visit my build and I'm excited to have a co-builder to trade tips with. I wish I had made your acquaintance sooner because I recently discovered an interesting resource for French naval architecture of the 17th C.: Souvenirs De Marine - Collection Plans Ou Dessins De Navires, by Vice Admiral Paris, 1886.

In taking over the Musee de la Marine, V.A. Paris took it upon himself to preserve what was known about early naval architecture. He recreated lines plans, interior structure, masting, rig and sail plans for a number of important ships from all epochs. In this, the third edition, La Couronne is the feature ship. He also spends quite a lot of time on Royal Louis of 1692 - which I expect to be quite helpful in filling-in the blanks, here and there. It's in French, and apparently written in his maddeningly tiny cursive, but I am translating portions of it. Very. Slowly.

I know from my background in furniture making that the first time you build something is when you draw it. That's what I am doing right now: drawing, working out construction problems, theoretically. Every day the picture gets a little clearer. I know this must be frustrating to those who are following along. I'm sure they really want to see me do SOMETHING.

But, I promise the good stuff is coming. I have sufficiently developed hand skills to render in three dimensions, whatever it is that I put to paper. But if the design - the layout - isn't good, then the model won't be either. No matter whether it's well crafted or not.

I have a few more hand drawings to do, and then I will disappear for a while, while I learn how to use drafting software. But I guarantee my plan is going to be worth sticking around for.

Please start a build-log EJ, and I'll follow you, as well. Do you have pictures or a log for Couronne?

It just isn't baroque until all sides are embellished!
 
Not sure why, but the image orientation changes from portrait to landscape when I import image from my phone. Too aggravating to correct on the device. You get the idea.