Blackie

Thanks for the comments I have had for a number of years, a copy of Howard Chapelle's book "The Baltimore Clipper". As you say Michael, it is an excellent read and it is one of the sources that I am using as I work my way (albeit slowly) through my model of a Baltimore Clipper. The examples shown in Chapelle's book show the masts raking at anywhere from about 12 to 15 degrees so I don't think that I can go too far wrong if I am in that range.

Thanks Floyd and good luck with the Dremel and the planking. As long as you haven't fitted the masts there is still time to fiddle with them. There is a MSW forum about masts and the advice was to oversize the opening in the deck and fit wedges after you have found the angle of the rake that best suits you. I think that I will go with that advice (Aussie spelling) after I have formed and assembled the masts. Cheers

I recently bought some brass sheaves from Cornwall Model Boats sized from 2.5mm diameter to 6mm diameter at 13 pence each plus some postage. I have bought other items from CMB and they ship within 1-2 days and I have never been disappointed with their products and I don't find their airmail costs too much. However, if you order timber lengths they will cut them in half which might be OK unless you need them in 1m length and want to pay for a courier - very expensive. CMB website: http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/ship_fittings.html

Thanks Russ. I thought that might be the case. I read that no two Baltimore Clippers were the same and that seems what you would expect when you read about where and how they were built. Thanks again

Thanks Mark What I also want to know is which angles should I be using for a Baltimore Clipper? Perhaps this is not the correct forum but it's what I found in my search. Blackie PS my copy of Mastini's Ship Modeling Simplified (1990) does not have Dan's bipod but a very complicated arrangement of posts, protractor and plumb bobs. I'm not sure that I follow Dan's version - can someone explain it a little more?

Hi all I am building a version of AL Harvey and my build log is on this site. I have about abandoned the kit for the masts and rigging and most of the deck fittings and my query is about the rake of the masts for a Baltimore Clipper. The kit has them at 8 and 9 degrees off the vertical but it appears from my reading that they were more likely to be 12-16 degrees. Can anyone offer suggestions? Thanks Blackie

HI Floyd When you get time, another query of mine relates to the rake of the masts. I said above that I was staying with the kit angles but since then I have been re-reading my book about the two Pride of Baltimore vessels. The book shows sail plans of both vessels and writes about the mast angles for PoBI. It implies that for PoBI the mast angles were: main 17o off the vertical and 2.5-3o less for the foremast. The drawings measure at: PoBI main mast 17o, foremast 14o. For PoBII: main mast 16o and foremast 14o. Meanwhile the kit has the masts at main mast 9o and foremast 8o. Can you shed any light on how to proceed?

Hi Floyd Yes I agree about the chains - BC in 1810-1815 would surely have had rope martingales and bowsprit shrouds, especially when you consider where they were built. I also agree about the flag staff - why would a privateer/letter of marque vessel have one, especially on the bow sprit where it would interfere with the foresails. I am setting the bowsprit cap vertical with the dolphin striker also vertical and attached to the forward face of the cap. Davis says this is the American way but some of the images of the BC show them slightly off vertical. When you are unpacked and have a chance to get at the kit, please let me know what you intend to do with your masts re length, shape and tops and any other configuration of the bow rigging. With the martingales and bowsprit shrouds, I am trying to stay clear of the anchor cable as it trails from hawse hole to cathead, which I have also changed to be the "angled" type over rather than through the bulwark. The type on the kit appears to be the type used when there is little or no bulwark to get in the way of the men attempting to secure the anchor.

A bit more reading and so some more tinkering. Now I must get down to doing some work on it. I have thought about Floyd's comment re positioning the forward cannon forward of the shrouds and think that I also will do this - Easier to build but also shown on images of Baltimore Clippers in books that I have been reading and the cannon fire is further away from the shrouds. Spars: I am starting with the foremast and don't like the look of the masthead - it looks too short in the kit drawings. Again using my library for reference, Charles Davis in his book Ship Model Builder's Assistant p52-53 discusses the masthead length and states that up to about 1800 the masthead was quite short and about 1/6 of the mast length. After 1800 or so the masthead began to lengthen but he still has a BC masthead at 1/6 of mast. I have lengthened masthead on the Harvey model to 55mm which is about 1/7 and looks about right. I also show how I will taper the foremast and the changes in shape that I hope to achieve. I have changed the mast top to shorten the cross trees and move them - perhaps I will add a third cross tree forward of the top mast but other two as shown. I have yet to decide about the stunsail booms. Rigging: I am definitely going with 3 shrouds on the lower mast and 2 shrouds on the top mast plus a standing backstay and a running backstay. I am almost set for the bowsprit and jib boom rigging as shown in my sketch - perhaps the martingale fixing to the hull will slide a bit. I am yet to decide on where the various forestays attach to the foremasts but will go with only 3 foresails not the 4 shown in the kit drawings.

Hi Floyd I am OK with the cable going aft which is where the weight can be carried and there is room below, especially on this single deck vessel to stow it away from the crew in the forecastle around the foremast. From what I am reading it was usual to take it aft through and below the main hatch and if it came aboard dirty it could be washed and the water ran aft to the pumps just aft of the main mast. In Chapelle's book, his drawings all show the capstan aft of the main mast except for one plan in which case I guess one can place it between the masts In my other book on schooners, if a capstan is shown it is nearly always shown aft of the main mast. Again not in every case and in a few the windlass is sometimes shown aft of the foremast. So there can be found examples of just about anywhere you want to place these fittings - up to you and me. I now have an idea of the rigging and will post sketches soon. Generally I am going with 3 shrouds and one back stay fitted to channels with a running back stay also on each mast. I will delete the kit's upper ratlines (from trees upwards) on the main mast and I will rejig some of the connections to better show reality. I am also going to recut some of the jib sails to get the sheet to pull evenly on the leech and foot and tie at the logical pin.

Attached is my latest deck plan which shows changes as follows: - aft cannon moved forward to be positioned between two of the shrouds - two small ladder way hatches for crew located aft and forward of the main area below deck and main hatch more central between the masts - stove pipe and hatch aft of the foremast - retention of the windlass. Note that this could be deleted as the capstan can be used to retrieve the anchor using a continuous messenger run along the deck between hawse holes and capstan I am now looking into revising the AL kit rigging.

Another book by Howard Chapelle that I have is The Baltimore Clipper - Its Origin and Development. It was first published in 1930 and I have the 1965 reprint. It has accounts of Baltimore clippers during the 1812 war as well as comment on their origins from pilot boats, luggers and other vessels in the mid 1700s through the vessels of the Revolution. It concludes with their evolution into slavers and eventual finish around the mid 1800s. The book has informed my remake of the AL Harvey as it contains a number of deck and sail plans as well as descriptions of rigs and hull shapes.

Floyd I do some volunteer modelling work for the local Heritage Fleet and so asked some questions about my version and the replies were: Gratings - vessels this size would not have them. Too risky re shipping water and the crew just made do for ventilation. That is what happens with the Sydney Heritage Fleet's James Craig when at sea and it is a much bigger vessel (3 masted barque) with a lot of free-board. I am going to move my main hatch aft to be more central between the masts. Capstan vs windlass - if you must lose one of them, then keep the capstan. Certainly nearly all of the drawings in Chapelle's book show capstans and no windlass. The windlass is more of a fitting for merchant ships and as some of the Baltimore Clipper vessels of the 1812 war came from "civilian" use vessels, it does not seem inappropriate to have a windlass as well as the capstan. I have to think about this some more but no matter which way i go, I am keeping the capstan. Cannon locations: 4 pounders are OK size with 9-12 pound max and as I do not want a slaver, and I have the kit cannons I will retain the cannons as they are in size. However, the aft cannon should be moved forward to fire between the forward shrouds. Only have aft location if the vessel had 6 to 8 cannons on each side. That means I need to cut another gun port and plan to separate the shrouds slightly. Brass stove pipe: I will not paint it black as all of my metal will stay brass - I am not painting the model to be "real". In past years I used a copper sulphate solution (I think) to blacken the brass and it gave the metal a nice dull black/very dark grey colour which is better than paint. Nowadays I can't remember the formula or where I bought the copper sulphate from. I will revise my deck plan and repost it for anyone who might view this log. Next job is to re plan the rigging, both standing and running as I don't believe that the kit shows it correctly.

Hi Floyd and Russ Thanks for comments. Floyd, now to try and answer your queries. The planking was a long time in the making. I divided the hull into 4 and then used a flexible tape and proportional dividers to determine each plank width at each bulkhead/frame. I agree with you about the pump location. It must be as far aft as possible to get into the lowest depth of the bilge and just behind the main mast seems the correct location for the Harvey model. I have attached shots of the binnacle, cabin, pump and galley stove pipe. The binnacle is from Karl Heinz Marquardt's book The Global Schooner p201. It is 3 compartments, each with vertical sliding panels; the centre section is for a light and so the ring on top is the "chimney", the outer sections had compasses in them. Charles Davis in The Built-Up Ship Model also shows a box-type binnacle. The cabin is my version as I did not like the clumsy kit one. I believe that the companionway covering/hatch would be better integrated with the companion light. I do not have any gratings though I did make them from the kit and have retired them to the "extras" box. I don't believe that a single deck vessel such as the Baltimore clipper with low freeboard would be fitted with gratings over the hatches even if they could be covered and battened - why not just fit solid hatch covers to keep the hold reasonably dry, which can be removed relatively easily at anytime for ventilation compared to canvas covers and battens? Yes, it is a stove pipe and a small hatch ahead of it to get some air in over the stove. Cannon shot will be fitted into racks alongside the main hatch. I have bought some smaller shot (2mm balls) to fit better with my idea that the cannon are 4 pounders. I agree with your comment about moving the aftmost cannon forward. Its a pity that when I built the bulwarks a few years ago, I did not know as much about Baltimore clippers as I think I do now. I am thinking about cutting in cannon port up forward about inline with the foremast or perhaps just forward of the foremast channels. Finally, my date of 1820 was a bit of guesswork based on Howard Chapelle's The Baltimore Clipper Its Origin and Development in which he talks about the design being used by slavers after the 1812 war as it was very fast and could sometimes outrun the Royal Navy cruisers. On reflection my deck layout might be a bit influenced by Chapelle's comments on slavers which went for unencumbered decks with smaller and fewer openings. That said Chapelle's book has a number of drawings of clippers and similar vessels which all show few deck fittings and dates of 1811, 1815, 1816, 1817, or so. Hmmm. these fittings look OK in real-life but a bit rough under the macro lens.

I also use Modellers Shipyard but have found that Cornwall Model Boats in England have a huge range of timber planks and strips in differing species. Their website is http://www.cornwallmodelboats.co.uk/acatalog/ship_fittings.html They will cut the timber to 500mm lengths unless you pay about $30 for a courier to deliver it in the original 1m length. That's not so bad if you order a number of planks and strips in one order.

Hi Floyd As I said earlier, I started the Harvey years ago and I am still building it. I remember that the bulwarks came in the kit as pre-shaped plywood and I do not remember any problems in getting them to curve and sit into the correct alignment. Perhaps that was OK in the old kit. Anyway, I have abandoned the deck layout like you and my drawing of my version plus some photos of my build to date is in my log (Harvey by Blackie). I would appreciate any comments that you can give before or after your move. As I am doing my own version of the baltimore clipper I have decided on a date of 1820 - not sure why but I have. I went with the "cupboard" type binnacle after seeing it in a few books as being of that time. I also have placed the pump towards the stern which is where my references show it to have been and I have made my own here also. I am also making my own cannon carriages as the kit ones are way too big and I have scratch-made a jolly boat as the kit version is made from large frames and looks way out of scale. My kit gunwale rails also came as walnut. From experience with my Mercury I did not even try and use it but bought some beech planks - very bendy and a snap to shape and fit. In my kit the first layer of planking was limewood. It that what you call basswood? My second layer of planking is walnut tapered from stem to stern with a few stealers at bow and stern and it took me an age - I'm glad that it is completed.

I started this AL kit Harvey some 12 years after 2 other kit builds - Mercury and Panart Saint Lucia, a tartan. The build progressed very slowly and I abandoned it about 8 years ago due to work and other interests. Finally in mid last year I was able to get back to it and I finished the hull planking just before Christmas. However, about then I began a lot of research into Baltimore clippers and I realised that the Harvey kit is "not true to form". My version of the kit materials-wise does seem to be quite good compared to those that I have read about so perhaps the kit has deteriorated over the past decade. Anyway, I now see that the deck layout could not be as shown in the kit and I have decided to scratch build my deck fittings to a new layout and I have almost completed a scratch build of the jolly boat for the stern davits. The deck fittings are made but not attached and I am also building new cannon carriages about half the size of the kit parts - this is the correct size as far as I can determine using the same brass cannon in the kit which seem to be 4 pounders. I must admit that I have been a bit distracted by other things and doing some research on the rigging but hope to get going again now on the build. I welcome any comments.

Hi Floyd I am also building the Harvey though it was started years ago and I only returned to it late last year due to work and other interests. Like you I am changing the build from that in the kit though I wish I knew then what I know now. I have abandoned the deck layout completely and am also revising the rigging somewhat. I will start a log and would like to discuss my changes with you.

I bought the AL Harvey many years ago after building 2 other kits - not AL. I started Harvey about 10 years ago but it has only been in the last year that I have returned to it. I found the 6 x B1 sheets of drawings and the instructions OK at first but after much research have abandoned the deck fittings and have drawn my own deck layout. I have now made my own fittings from scratch including the cannon carriages and I am also redrawing the rigging as much of the AL work looks incorrect. However, I did find most of the timber and the fittings to be quite good.