Thanasis

Mates, since the model of schooner "Terpsichore" is going to exhibited in a Anniversary exhibition "Greece 1821-2021" this weekend,
here is a photo of her and the famous 48pdr cannon.   
The model has been built by my friend George Bouzounis whose some models of him you can see in below links.
https://modelshipworld.com/gallery/album/1534-greek-sakoleva/
 https://modelshipworld.com/gallery/album/1538-skaphee-from-symi-island/
 https://modelshipworld.com/gallery/album/1529-rowing-quottrataquot/
Thx
 
 
  

Mates, since the model of schooner "Terpsichore" is going to exhibited in a Anniversary exhibition "Greece 1821-2021" this weekend,
here is a photo of her and the famous 48pdr cannon.   
The model has been built by my friend George Bouzounis whose some models of him you can see in below links.
https://modelshipworld.com/gallery/album/1534-greek-sakoleva/
 https://modelshipworld.com/gallery/album/1538-skaphee-from-symi-island/
 https://modelshipworld.com/gallery/album/1529-rowing-quottrataquot/
Thx
 
 
  

Mates, since the model of schooner "Terpsichore" is going to exhibited in a Anniversary exhibition "Greece 1821-2021" this weekend,
here is a photo of her and the famous 48pdr cannon.   
The model has been built by my friend George Bouzounis whose some models of him you can see in below links.
https://modelshipworld.com/gallery/album/1534-greek-sakoleva/
 https://modelshipworld.com/gallery/album/1538-skaphee-from-symi-island/
 https://modelshipworld.com/gallery/album/1529-rowing-quottrataquot/
Thx
 
 
  

As evoked by Bruce, a simple formula can be used to calculate any bore (or roundshot) diameter, just knowing only one from a given calibre system. There were naturally some small individual variations for different reasons, but it usually works within production tolerances, at least for identification purposes.
 
 
    Diameter1³                                  Poundage1
------------------------            =            -----------------------
    Diameter2³                                  Poundage2
 

For example, if you know that the bore diameter of a French 48 pounder is 19.4 cm, and you are looking for a diameter of a (theoretical) French 68 pounder gun, then:
 

    19.4³            48 (pdr)
--------------  =   --------------
       x³               68 (pdr)
 
 
x³ = (19.4³ * 68) / 48 = 10343,63               =====>                x = 21.8 cm (bore diameter of a theoretical French 68-pounder)
 
 
For better results, avoid – if possible – mixing calibres of different systems used in specific countries.
 

The bore diameter of a 48pdr cannon is 194 mm (7.63 inches).
 
GD

Thanasis, I may be wrong but it seems there is still some confusion about the cannons in post #43.
The size of the bore is a very reliable way to identify the size of a cannon/carronade. Here are some of the bore sizes of artillery pieces popular in the middle of the 19th century:
 
    - size -                - bore -
6 pounder =     3.67 inches
9 pounder =     4.20 inches
12 pounder =   4.62 inches
18 pounder =   5.30 inches
24 pounder =   5.82 inches
32 pounder =   6.40 inches
42 pounder =   7 inches
 
I did not find a figure for 48 pounder but there is a formula for calculating the bore for any size of shot. As you can see, the bore of a 48 pounder will be over 7 inches. If you know the bore of the cannons in the photo (post #43) and the drawing (post #52) you can definitely identify their size.
 
Good luck with your research.
HTH
Bruce
 

Well, sorry mates but I think I've been misunderstood.
In any way I don't relate the 48pdr cannon of "Terpsichore" with the 68pdr carronade of "Karteria". I would be rather foolish...
I was just answering the questions that was set at me...
Finally, I specify that my query was whether the gun of "Terpsichore" could be something else (Hybrid Paixhans gun?).
Thanks to all of you, I have some more option to turn my search.
Thank you

@Bruce. Here is the dimension of those 68 pdr carronades (π=feet). According to Hastings archives, that is kept in English archeological school of Athens, the carronades were constructed in England and were sent in Greece with the ship "Alfred"  (Captain Monkman) and  they been received in16th of May 1826.
It should have been a special order that, was needed to be a special mold...
@Waldemar. Yes, factories can be taken over but not from the very first months of the war, starting produce heavy guns.(?)
Terpsichore appears to use her 48pdr gun (even uncertain) two months after the beginning of war in May 1821...
Going buck to thread...
Could please anyone say whether those guns in photos are a 48pdr and a 36pdr guns?
Thank you


 

 
 
 

Well, sorry mates but I think I've been misunderstood.
In any way I don't relate the 48pdr cannon of "Terpsichore" with the 68pdr carronade of "Karteria". I would be rather foolish...
I was just answering the questions that was set at me...
Finally, I specify that my query was whether the gun of "Terpsichore" could be something else (Hybrid Paixhans gun?).
Thanks to all of you, I have some more option to turn my search.
Thank you

@Waldemar. Well as I wrote, "Greece" was under the Ottomans' occupation it would be rather difficult to be set up such factory and especial for heavy cannons.
As about the "half kandar gun" I'll make a better search to that direction again. Your info brought in my mind a notice under a history's text, where after the destruction of the Ottoman's flagship in the gulf of Eressos (island of Lesvos) by a fire ship, among the ships which stay back for plundering cannons was also the "Terpsichore". It is written that the flag ship was a 76 cannon's ship but it's not quite clear whether at that time May 1821 (at the begging of the war) "Terpsichore" had that 48pdr gun. 
In a history text I found that the range was long  and it couldn't reach the flag ship while in another one that, the flag ship was so strong that the big gun of her, was ineffective...!? 
@bruse d. I place the complete drawing bellow.
It's hand drawn by Hasting as it was his idea based on Paixhans system while he was preparing the armament of "Karteria". As you can see and if my eyes don't misleads me there is the word "carronade" while I can't read the rest of the text...
Thank you

 

I don't insist in something more modern than a 48pdr trajectory gun of that time. 
I must admit that one member of our search team, has the strong belief that must be a Russian Unicorn.
In many arguments we had, I point out that we have found nothing to relate the owner-captain of the ship (Tompazis) to Russians and there was no any Russian officer around his environment but instead there were a few French and English military officers, who were following the developments in Europe.
In addition both Tomas Gordon (Scottish Colonel)  and Frank Abney Hastings (British naval officer, crew on "Terpsichore" and later commander of "Karteria")  philhellenes,  in their memoirs, are referring to that gun as 48pdr carronade without pointing the nationality. I think both they should have been able to recognize a Russian gun or they should ask and write about it.
In general we have spent much time of our search  for the gun of 'Terpsichore". 
We don't know whether the gun was set on her before the start of war or after, to determine whether was a buy or a later prize.
We don't know whether the two philhellenes referring for the same initial gun, or on something that had been set later.
There are so many options and uncertainty that we can only make guesses and someone (like me) based on the character of the captain.
Thank you

@Waldemar. Well as I wrote, "Greece" was under the Ottomans' occupation it would be rather difficult to be set up such factory and especial for heavy cannons.
As about the "half kandar gun" I'll make a better search to that direction again. Your info brought in my mind a notice under a history's text, where after the destruction of the Ottoman's flagship in the gulf of Eressos (island of Lesvos) by a fire ship, among the ships which stay back for plundering cannons was also the "Terpsichore". It is written that the flag ship was a 76 cannon's ship but it's not quite clear whether at that time May 1821 (at the begging of the war) "Terpsichore" had that 48pdr gun. 
In a history text I found that the range was long  and it couldn't reach the flag ship while in another one that, the flag ship was so strong that the big gun of her, was ineffective...!? 
@bruse d. I place the complete drawing bellow.
It's hand drawn by Hasting as it was his idea based on Paixhans system while he was preparing the armament of "Karteria". As you can see and if my eyes don't misleads me there is the word "carronade" while I can't read the rest of the text...
Thank you

 

Well I'm not an naval artillery expert and whatever knowledge I've gain, is whatever I've read from different sources for that time, trying to determine the type of gun that might was set on schooner "Terpsichore".
In fact I joined a research team of modelers who 2,5 years before had the idea to built a model of her. 
At this time the model is already finished by a fellow modeler, with a version of the big gun in prow, such as it  won't contrast with what many people have read or imagine.
Trying to find as much from the truth, we continue the search until the model be exposed and in case that some new emerged, then a new model of the gun will be built and set on the ship model.
As about the photos of those supposedly long carronades of "Karteria", the history says that her armament was 4  68pdr guns and 4  68pdr carronades. I have no opinion, thinking that whoever published this photos, have made his homework...!?
Thank you

I don't insist in something more modern than a 48pdr trajectory gun of that time. 
I must admit that one member of our search team, has the strong belief that must be a Russian Unicorn.
In many arguments we had, I point out that we have found nothing to relate the owner-captain of the ship (Tompazis) to Russians and there was no any Russian officer around his environment but instead there were a few French and English military officers, who were following the developments in Europe.
In addition both Tomas Gordon (Scottish Colonel)  and Frank Abney Hastings (British naval officer, crew on "Terpsichore" and later commander of "Karteria")  philhellenes,  in their memoirs, are referring to that gun as 48pdr carronade without pointing the nationality. I think both they should have been able to recognize a Russian gun or they should ask and write about it.
In general we have spent much time of our search  for the gun of 'Terpsichore". 
We don't know whether the gun was set on her before the start of war or after, to determine whether was a buy or a later prize.
We don't know whether the two philhellenes referring for the same initial gun, or on something that had been set later.
There are so many options and uncertainty that we can only make guesses and someone (like me) based on the character of the captain.
Thank you

Well I'm not an naval artillery expert and whatever knowledge I've gain, is whatever I've read from different sources for that time, trying to determine the type of gun that might was set on schooner "Terpsichore".
In fact I joined a research team of modelers who 2,5 years before had the idea to built a model of her. 
At this time the model is already finished by a fellow modeler, with a version of the big gun in prow, such as it  won't contrast with what many people have read or imagine.
Trying to find as much from the truth, we continue the search until the model be exposed and in case that some new emerged, then a new model of the gun will be built and set on the ship model.
As about the photos of those supposedly long carronades of "Karteria", the history says that her armament was 4  68pdr guns and 4  68pdr carronades. I have no opinion, thinking that whoever published this photos, have made his homework...!?
Thank you

@Waldemar. This (large-heavy Venetian gun) was also for me the first thought but it doesn't match with the research and innovative mind of the ship owner-captain. Except only if we assumed that he placed such a gun in his ship's bow, just to terrify the enemy. This was my second though, since I haven’t found any glorious achievement by this gun...
@Mr Doxford. I want to believe that the painting of "Terpsichore" shows the exact real ship.
Although at least one element of the rigging of the ship on his painting, was not used to be on Gr schooners, I guess should be accepted as an adopted by the owner innovation . I'm talking for the crossed yard above the deck in the fore mast.
@Delacroix. Thank you-your info is much appreciated.
I can't fight the fact, that the French navy never owned 48pdr carronades. What I'm saying is that the Paixhans in the above text, might call his 48pdr straight trajectory gun as carronade.
 
We might think that carronades are the short shape of a cannon but it might not be such.
See the below photos which shows a remnant of a 68pdr carronade with Paixhans system, which recently found in the wreck of "KARTERIA".
Thank you

@Waldemar. This (large-heavy Venetian gun) was also for me the first thought but it doesn't match with the research and innovative mind of the ship owner-captain. Except only if we assumed that he placed such a gun in his ship's bow, just to terrify the enemy. This was my second though, since I haven’t found any glorious achievement by this gun...
@Mr Doxford. I want to believe that the painting of "Terpsichore" shows the exact real ship.
Although at least one element of the rigging of the ship on his painting, was not used to be on Gr schooners, I guess should be accepted as an adopted by the owner innovation . I'm talking for the crossed yard above the deck in the fore mast.
@Delacroix. Thank you-your info is much appreciated.
I can't fight the fact, that the French navy never owned 48pdr carronades. What I'm saying is that the Paixhans in the above text, might call his 48pdr straight trajectory gun as carronade.
 
We might think that carronades are the short shape of a cannon but it might not be such.
See the below photos which shows a remnant of a 68pdr carronade with Paixhans system, which recently found in the wreck of "KARTERIA".
Thank you

@ Delacroix. Still I don't get it. 
Paixnans wrote his ""Nouvelle force Maritime"  in 1822. So when he proposes the 48pdr carronade as part of a ship's gunnery, he has already worked on his new 48pdr straight trajectory's gun since 1810. So to my point of view, I think he just clarifies this new gun by calling it "48pdr carronade". Having already the 48pdr curved trajectory's gun and his new 48pdr straight trajectory's gun, I can't see what  new fabrication is proposed. 
@Waldemar. Under the Ottomans, the ships of Gr fleet were trade ones which turned to war ships and so they were armed only with small caliber guns 12-24 pdrs, just for piracy protection. They were upgrading every after a victorious naval fight or  the siege of a fort. Ottomans had 48pdr cannons in their fortification all over, as remnants of the Venetians 150 years before. 
That, it could be a first potential source for 48pdrs even it could be problematic the issue of ammunition. 
And yes, after the start of war every cannon market was open.
Thank you

@Lieste. I have also consider the case of a 48cwt for which I don't know why someone at that time, would be referring to that, instead of the caliber of the gun. In addition there are the philhellenes' descriptions, who write for a 48lib carronade.

@Mark. Sorry but searching the same way, I couldn't find something for 48lib carronades. And according to Spencer C. Tucker  ( university professor, and author of works on military history) in his article "The Carronade" (Nautical research Journal), carronades were cast in all calibers, but the most common in about 1810, were 12-, 18-, 24-, and 32-pdr,  giving also some info for 42 and 68pdr carronades. But nothing for 48pdr.
Anyway.
The schooner I'm talking about is the "Terpsichore" rigged as topsail schooner, for which there is nothing more as technical info than the length of her keel that was 27,4 m (89,8 feet). Based on American's schooners plans, she was famous for her speed and her big gun, for which btw, there is nothing written as an achievement of it.!? 

@Delacroix. My English are not so good but if I'm understanding well, it is about what Paixans' proposes as gunnery for ships. I don't think that he would suggest something that it was non-existent and suppose to be invented in future. And all I could think is that he is referring to his innovation for a 48pdr gun.
Thank you all
 

 

Thank you all for your answers. 
I  have been also through the "Wind of Luck" gaming site, but I thought it would be something from an original source.
I'm not familiar with fake prints... and the handwritten notes on it, seemed real to me...
@.G. Delacroix. I have also visited your web site sir, I've seen the plans of that 48 cannon and I've read the information.
However, I'm not looking for plans but for anything could give me any clue for a riddle Ι'm dealing with...
In those info it is said that these guns were not used as naval ones beyond than 1783 but just only in costal and fortress defense batteries. (Book: French fortification 1715-1815).
But in my search, I have found that the artillery officer Paixhans, trying to prove his idea, that large caliber guns in small ships can make the difference, was experimenting with 48 cannons  in Antwerp in 1810.
I wonder why he was experimenting with those already  rejected guns. Were  the same guns, or could be something deferent.
Btw, was ever a 48-pounder carronade in French navy?
Many thanks

@Lieste. I have also consider the case of a 48cwt for which I don't know why someone at that time, would be referring to that, instead of the caliber of the gun. In addition there are the philhellenes' descriptions, who write for a 48lib carronade.

@Mark. Sorry but searching the same way, I couldn't find something for 48lib carronades. And according to Spencer C. Tucker  ( university professor, and author of works on military history) in his article "The Carronade" (Nautical research Journal), carronades were cast in all calibers, but the most common in about 1810, were 12-, 18-, 24-, and 32-pdr,  giving also some info for 42 and 68pdr carronades. But nothing for 48pdr.
Anyway.
The schooner I'm talking about is the "Terpsichore" rigged as topsail schooner, for which there is nothing more as technical info than the length of her keel that was 27,4 m (89,8 feet). Based on American's schooners plans, she was famous for her speed and her big gun, for which btw, there is nothing written as an achievement of it.!? 

@Delacroix. My English are not so good but if I'm understanding well, it is about what Paixans' proposes as gunnery for ships. I don't think that he would suggest something that it was non-existent and suppose to be invented in future. And all I could think is that he is referring to his innovation for a 48pdr gun.
Thank you all
 

 

A 24pdr of 48cwt might be an answer to the question, that would be suitable for a smallish schooner, and confusable with larger ordnance. This would also match the image of the 'style of gun' presumed to be associated with your schooner, which was a Blomefeld ordnance of a gun pattern (48cwt is the 9ft pattern) - not the shorter, broader style of a shell gun.

In short, soldier words: make an educated guess and choose at the most „modest“ 24-pounder for your schooner‘s bow gun. Better don‘t count on general historians sporting national bias who have usually no idea on period or modern artillery (assuming a 48-pounder or a 68-pounder is just their guess, not derived from the sources). Generally speaking, Paixhan work is more on ideas, rather than on actual practice. That's my advice. Thank you.

Hello. Thank you all mates.
 I've been through some of these info, but in fact I'm not interesting about Paixhans cannonballs but for that 48pdr cannon itself. 
So if I understand well, the gun that Paixhan was experimenting with in 1810, was an improved 48pdr of his innovation? 
The riddle I'm trying to solve, it's about a gun that was set in a bow of a Gr schooner, during the Gr war of independence (1821) and for which there are only controversial descriptions.
The folklore writings talks for a long and the heaviest at that time gun (among the common 12 and 24 pdrs of the Gr fleet) while by Gr history writers is determined as 48pdr and someone goes further writing that it was  a 68pdr.
On the other hand in the historic texts of some Western Philhellenes (some of them military officers  and sometime members of the crew), the gun is described as 48lib carronade!!!
Crossword for strong minds.
If you ask me why I'm thinking Paixan's guns, my answer is because the owner of the schooner  (shipbuilder himself as well) was a research and innovate mind to built the first Gr schooner based in American plans. By his decision to place a large caliber gun on the bow of his ship, at least for me shows that he was following the Paixhans idea, for large caliber guns on small ships. So why not to adopt also his innovated gun?

As about my query if ever was a 48pdr carronade in French navy, I have found the below text, part from Paixhan’s book "Nouvelle force Maritime" written in 1822.
As you can notice he refers both to 48pdr guns and 48pdr carronades.
 Is he referring to his innovated 48pdr gun as 48pdr carronade, separating it from the regular 48pdrs?
So again, which one is what, for strong minds.
Thank you
 

 

Hello. Thank you all mates.
 I've been through some of these info, but in fact I'm not interesting about Paixhans cannonballs but for that 48pdr cannon itself. 
So if I understand well, the gun that Paixhan was experimenting with in 1810, was an improved 48pdr of his innovation? 
The riddle I'm trying to solve, it's about a gun that was set in a bow of a Gr schooner, during the Gr war of independence (1821) and for which there are only controversial descriptions.
The folklore writings talks for a long and the heaviest at that time gun (among the common 12 and 24 pdrs of the Gr fleet) while by Gr history writers is determined as 48pdr and someone goes further writing that it was  a 68pdr.
On the other hand in the historic texts of some Western Philhellenes (some of them military officers  and sometime members of the crew), the gun is described as 48lib carronade!!!
Crossword for strong minds.
If you ask me why I'm thinking Paixan's guns, my answer is because the owner of the schooner  (shipbuilder himself as well) was a research and innovate mind to built the first Gr schooner based in American plans. By his decision to place a large caliber gun on the bow of his ship, at least for me shows that he was following the Paixhans idea, for large caliber guns on small ships. So why not to adopt also his innovated gun?

As about my query if ever was a 48pdr carronade in French navy, I have found the below text, part from Paixhan’s book "Nouvelle force Maritime" written in 1822.
As you can notice he refers both to 48pdr guns and 48pdr carronades.
 Is he referring to his innovated 48pdr gun as 48pdr carronade, separating it from the regular 48pdrs?
So again, which one is what, for strong minds.
Thank you