vaddoc

Dear all A wee bit of an update as I found a bit of time here and there to work on the boat. No sawdust yet (and will not be for a long time!) but a lot of digital ink spilled over my monitors. @KennyH78 Kenny, if you decide to build Tally Ho, let me know and I will send you the CAD file - if I manage to loft the boat that is. Still, lofting the boat is fun but also would give you a much better understanding of the hull lines and how she should be built. So lets discuss Tally Ho's plans. There is no doubt that there are issues with the plans in the archives of the Albert Strange Association. Tally Ho is a bit different to all the other boats I have lofted. The curvature of the hull does not stop at the rabet but continues at the stem, sternpost and all the way to the bottom of the keel. I think I remember Leo in one of his videos mentioning that there were missing data from the plans, specifically the offsets for the stem and sternpost. This is indeed one of the issues I am facing. Furthermore, the paper has been distorted over the years, there seems to be a bit of damage but also, my copy of the plans has not been scanned very well so there are some gaps with the lines and the text. Also, CAD is very unforgiving and I am picking up all sorts of issues with the plans - Leo must have seen this but to a lesser degree, as he did not use CAD for his lofting. Ok, so lets get a bit more technical - This may be boring but may also help some people with their lofting (and lofting of Tally Ho in particular). For me, the first step in lofting a boat is to find the edges of the hull surface. These are the sheer at the top, the rabet/bottom of keel at the bottom, the sternpost/transom aft and the stem with its rabet at the front. Most but not all of this info is in the table of offsets but again there are issues. The table of offsets does not seem to correspond to the dimensions as measured using the plan lines. I initially created the sheer using the numbers from the table, however the position of the stem and transom, which define the start and finish of the sheer, must be taken from the lines - also the width of the stem. Combining all these does not really work. Using just the lines again does not work - the boat comes out short by half foot and generally things do not work well, the lines are not fair and there are issues with the keel. So I decided to ignore the table of offsets - I only used the half breadths for the bottom of the keel. I traced all the frames (except frame 13 which is missing) and positioned them in their stations (2 feet apart) using the same reference point to make sure they were aligned. I added some diagonals of my own - Leo was right, this boat is much easier to loft using diagonals. I then added the sheer, keel, sternpost/Transom and stem. Again it did not work! So I went back to watching the You Tube videos and the solution was there. You see, Leo had the same plans as I do but he also had the boat! He mentions that the sternpost face is 4 inches wide - excellent. But he also showed this drawing: This shows that the stem is 7 inches wide (although he chose 8 inches to give more support the the hood ends of the planks. The lines show the stem less thick at 6 inches. Mine was 10.6 inches so clearly wrong. The face of the stem is only 1.25 inches and the rabet 6.75" from the stem face. This was very useful. I also measured the distances of the stem from station 6 at all waterlines, to get its shape I used all these to draw a new stem with a new shape at a new position. I then created a new sheer from the top of the frames I had traced. Combining all worked beautifully! The boat is now 47.5' long and the stem just over 7" wide! The drawing bellow is the same as Leos. The yellow line is the contact surface of the planks with the stem. The arrow shows the half thickness of the stem. The blue line is the sheer. So now with all boundaries defined, it was time to start lofting. Some work was done to get the half breadths at the bottom of the keel correct. I traced all the diagonals, waterlines and buttocks. They were of course all over the place: Fairing this line produces a much more satisfying curve. After all the lines had been drawn and faired, new frames were produced - using only the diagonals. All new frames drawn and faired. I noticed that there was very little deviation from the original contact points with the diagonals. The last frame aft is a different colour because it did not really cooperate. This needs more work. This is just the first cycle of lofting but I tried to make a surface and I was half surprised how well it worked. I knew the lines where not that far off but I did not expect this: The hull is already reasonable and the areas where usually I have issues, at the bow and stern, look mostly ok. The boat needs at least one more lofting cycle but it looks promising. Take care all Vaddoc

Perhaps this will be helpful, there is a build log where styrene rod was used, then a heat gun to melt the part of rods sticking out into round rivet heads that could be painted. Vaddoc

@Desertanimal @Knocklouder Chris and Bob many thanks, and to all that hit the like button, great to have you along! @Keith Black Keith, I was actually thinking the same, life certainly has the annoying habit of getting in the way. This boat in some ways is like the Deben I ve built in the past, but larger and far more complex and Lord knows how much work that boat took, when I had much more time. But we can't leave MSW without a model of Tally Ho so let's hope everything will work out in the end. @wrkempson Wayne wow! This is just great, thank you for sharing. It is interesting that you reached the same conclusion, that Tally Ho's plans are like a puzzle with a few pieces missing. I will need to study your master lines and all the good work you did, see how it compares to the plans and the table of offsets. Which software did you use? Best wishes to all Vaddoc

Ok, so lets do a quick follow up post with the first thoughts on this. To start with, the plans do not seem to be as comprehensive. There are the lines and some drafts of the keel and a table of offsets but something feels not quite right. Then again, Leo managed to loft the boat so everything should be there. I checked the plans and the lines are not really straight, or vertical. This is common however, paper distorts over time and CAD is really very unforgiving to plans drafted 115 years ago. These lines will be ok to start but serious lofting will be needed. Still, this seems a much easier boat to loft than Hercules I imported the plans to Rhino and scaled them to the actual boat size. I need to dive more into these but it seems that the distances as measured from the lines plan are not the same as in the table of offsets. I am not sure where the stem/start of sheer should be or where the Transom sits. To make things worse, the plans I received do not seem to have been scanned very well. Most of the text in the table of offsets was missing but I managed to recreate it by watching Leo's videos - he had the same plans and they can be seen in a video, so I was able to read almost all of the missing text. A part of the lines plan has not been scanned well and another small area at the bow is missing - apparently permanently damaged as it is missing from Leo's plans as well However, the same lines are easily found on the internet, clearly copied before the damage occurs so I scaled this to size and used it to fill the gaps - kind off. So I blended all together and came up with a sheer plan view Then added the profile view and created the sheer from these Adding the other half, shows a bit of the boat shape Now this is just a study of the plans as I am not really sure where the sheer begins and ends, but it's a start. Until next time Vaddoc

"It's amazing what a boat can do" TALLY HO with fidded topmast and spinnaker flying. Photo; Beken of Cowes, 1927. Tally Ho is not just a boat - it is an amazing story of friendship, perseverance, skill and success, a crossroad of many journeys - of men and boats. It all started with Albert Strange, a man of many talents, with a passion for sailing and for designing light cruising vessels. He designed Tally Ho (originally named Betty) which was built and commissioned in 1910. The Albert Strange Association website is really the best place to learn about this remarkable person. https://albertstrange.org/biography/ Tally Ho lived a colourful but hard life. The highlight is, or rather had been up to now, winning the Fastnet race in 1927 but then, in 1968, she actually sunk hitting a reef in Manuae, near Cook Islands. She was then raised and repaired. https://sampsonboat.co.uk/about/tally-ho-history Many people came and went and Tally Ho was brought into disrepair, hauled ashore somewhere in the west cost of America and placed under a huge tarpaulin. She was put up for an unlikely sale, destined to be broken up. There comes Leo, a fearless young man with a dream - he bought Tally Ho for $1 and then spent 7 years rebuilding her from the ground up. The journey can be found on You Tube, Leo has posted hundreds of videos and through this funded the project. It is a fascinating journey with its ups and downs, happy and sad moments, triumphs and disasters. She is now all finished, truly a wonderful boat, slowly making her way back to the UK. Watching the videos (I actually picked all this up rather late) there was no doubt in my mind that one day I would build Tally Ho. This will be a big project and at this time (and for the foreseeable future) I have no time to spare, limited finances, multiple other endeavours and Hercules half way through. What better time to start building Tally Ho than now! After all, her story is one of overcoming obstacles, with a launching date 2 years from now - so all good. I hope I will be able to pull this off and also, to do the boat justice! I contacted the Albert Strange Association and got the plans. I ve been sitting on these for months now but I finally fired up the computer and started drawing lines with virtual ink on CAD. I have not decided on the scale yet but it will be large. Take care all Vaddoc

Great job on the hull Phil! I usually seal the wood and spray a thin film of modelling primer on hulls before painting. I am very close to painting my hull as well. Are you planning to do anything to the raised edges left by the tape? People apparently sand these but I am not sure how this could be done without ruining the whole paint job. Vaddoc

Time sure flies! Many thanks for the visit and likes @Dr PR Phil, I remembered you sharing this and it was on my to do list, unfortunately I had to use so many pieces of wood to straighten the hull that there was no space for a brush, most of the inner surface of the hull was inaccessible. I ll be using epoxy for sure in the future though. So, very little progress to share but here it is: I finished with the propeller shaft housing, it is secured, sanded and faired. I think this was a much more elegant solution than Occre's but also much more difficult. Next I started cutting the openings on the bulwark. One side went fine: The other not, the drill slipped! Trying to see how to correct it, I broke it even more! Ok, no need to panic. It was relatively straight forward to fix it: It has since been sanded and the screws replaced with tree nails. When painted and more stuff added on, it will be invisible. I then attached the rubrail on one side Now the rub rail continues around the stern in a pretty tight curve for a 3 x 3 mm pear strip to accept. I emersed the strip in a pot of boiling water slowly pushing against the pot wall, the strip took the bend in no time. This is all I had time to do between work and extended summer vacations. My work load is going to drastically increase soon, so clearly the most reasonable thing to do is to start another log on an ambitious project - coming soon. Best wishes to all Vaddoc

My 2 c: I do not think you need any specialised tutorials, just play with Rhino a bit more. There is a command to create surface, one to offset surfaces (for the thickness of planking) and another to unroll surfaces (sometimes useful). Use the command to fair lines but this needs care as it may move lines - useful also to progressively use as few points as possible for your curves. The lines need to touch for a surface to be created but lofting does not need to be perfect as the wood will correct lots of imperfections. Using fewer curves for surfaces is easier. The curves that do not play ball can later on be projected on to the surface - there is a command to project lines and points to a surface that is very useful. To create the hull surface, you need to have defined the sheer (best created from two lines/views), the keel rabbet, sternpost and stem. To check for ripples and surface fairness there is the analyze surface command that contains surface analysis tools. You can also import plans and lines, scale them appropriately and use them to trace lines and then position these to the 3D space. I think you are almost there to be honest. Best wishes Vaddoc

A way of planking boats and ships is to mark a straight plank somewhere in the middle of the hull. This way the planks above and bellow will not have excessive curves during spilling or in your case will not need to be bent sidewise too much.

Yes, this would have been a better alternative but I always end up overbuilding things. But I may have gone too far with this! What is not visible is the epoxy I added inside afterwards to glue the plywood walls with the frame...

A wee more update as I did a bit more work on the boat - I must admit I am having too much fun! I previously admitted that I shamelessly read the building instructions from Occre of their Hercules kit to get some ideas. There are a few things that I felt could be done better, in this post I ll show my solutions to the problems. So I left the hull on the side for now and started work on the superstructure. Again, my CAD drafts were not entirely correct but at least the templates for the superstructure inner bulkheads were spot on. However, the plywood started warping so I screwed the bottom to a very thick piece of plywood and used screws and epoxy to make it rock solid. Now, Occre uses lots of thin vertical pieces to cover the forward part of the superstructure, blended together afterwards with filler and sanding but I just bend a piece of 1 mm plywood. Another area were Occre used multiple thin strips is the two aft corners but I just made two pillars with stacked pieces of plywood - the small gap will be very easily filled with filler. Hercules has a very distinct propeller shaft tube thingy, this is a feature that a model must have. The solution from Occre is not very elegant, just bending a piece of wood over a tube. My solution was different. It was actually easy to draft this in CAD and looking at the drawing, it seemed doable to sand a half dowel to sit on the hull. Indeed, it worked well and was surprisingly easy and quick. The screws will of course be replaced with wood nails, maybe even use a bot of epoxy, then filler and sanding - I think it will look fine. Best wishes Vaddoc

Many thanks to all that hit the like button. @Jim Lad Thanks John, really it is a very elegant hull! @Bedford I had a bit of a hardware issue so suspense to be prolonged for a few days - I suspect the boat will appeal to you as well! @wefalck I did think about this and I have half decided to leave this out, for two reasons: One is that I do not like the plating which is random with a large curved belt along the length of the hull, such elegant lines deserve better. Second is that I ve been fighting cracks between the planks, I ve already filled and sanded three times but the planks keep moving. Not sure why as the pear I am using is very old and dry, perhaps I have not used enough frames. In any case, the plank lines will show no matter what I do so maybe best to leave it as a wooden hull instead of simulating a riveted steel hull. Ok, some more photos: The hull is now filled, sanded to 320 grit, sealed and sanded lightly to 400 grit - then sealed again and re-sanded to 400 grit. I actually intended to use a blade to scrape the hull but I forgot to do it, it would have been faster. Still, the hull is now very smooth. I ve left the little feet to the hull as they ll help to mark the water line. Happily, the stern also came out alright There are several opening to be cut out to the bulwarks as well as some more work to be done before painting This is pretty much as far as I ve gone studying the plans and the boat. I need to figure out the stern layout and tiller mechanism, finish the bulwarks and start work on the superstructure (started already, again some happy accidents in my CAD drawings) In the mean time I cleaned and tidied up the shipyard, thought I d share some photos Sanding station with the new toy, Proxxon MF 70 - not sure what I can do with it but I had some credit with Axminster so chose this. Cutting/drilling station Work bench Take care all Vaddoc

These seem to melt at 900 C, whereas silver solder paste is between 600 - 700 C. To my experience, to reach such high temp a larger heat source is needed risking melting the actual piece. I actually had this happen a couple of times.

Honestly Phil, your CAD drawings are pretty amazing. Regarding caulking, I ve used in the past Elmers colour changing filler mixed with black acrylic paint. Sanding it all off leaves gray caulking lines. A quick wipe with Tung oil (I suspect any other finish as well or Rennaisance wax which is invisible) makes the lines black again. Vaddoc

Dear all Thank you all for your comments and likes! I ve been working on the boat, walking a thin line between the Admiral's wrath and getting a few things actually done, so time for another update. Rob Ross used to say that there are no mistakes, only happy accidents. There sure have been many happy accidents so far with this boat! Usually my CAD drafts are pretty accurate but as I move on, I am scratching my head as 1+1 does not always make 2, I cannot figure out what I was actually drafting. But so far I managed to more or less fix things. So planking is finished! You will see that the sheer strake, or rather half of it, is missing. The reason is that Hercules has a tall bulwark and it would be difficult to securely fix it in place so I thought it made sense to merge the sheer strake with the bulwark. Now Hercules is 150 feet long and made of steel so the planks are completely unrealistic but they do make a nice hull! The card templates (there were even more than these) show how much work actually planking involves with spilling and everything - still I had only 2 half planks that I had to re do as they came out very wrong. One of the many happy accidents is in the following photos. I did not really want to buy new wood so I had just enough pear for the planking. I managed to snap the very last length I had left, with just a half plank left to do! I managed to fix this by making it in two parts, narrow escape! Then lots of Osmo filler and lots of sanding. Of course I did not read the instructions that state to thin the filler with 15% water and I struggled wasting a lot of the expensive filler. Prior to that, all the hundreds of screws were replaced by tree nails. Much more filling and sanding will be needed but a big chunk of the hull preparation has been done. Then I made the bulwarks but only after I managed to snap the little stem extension not once but twice. I had a sheet of maple and three sheets of mahogany left so I used maple - what a nice wood it is! It will all be primed and painted black. But something felt wrong. I went back to my CAD drafts and the plans and indeed, the bulwark/planks were a couple of centimeters short. The happy accidents are piling up! Now, Hercules has this little feature at the stern where there is a small flat vertical segment, this has to be made by laminating thin strips which gives the opportunity to correct the mistake above. So I used some thin beech strips I had. I dislike beech due to its huge movement in service but it is so nice to bend, just with water it can be tied in a knot. I just used PVA to laminate the strips, if I had used epoxy it would have been very messy. Then rough cut to shape and screwed in place. I know it looks rough, I had trouble with the stern drafting in CAD and did not really spend time on it, I hope I ll fix it with a bit of filler, bit of sanding, paint on top. I am enjoying this boat, it is very different from anything I have built so fat. On another note, the postman dropped a cardboard tube with some plans which are currently being processed. There will be a new log starting, this time for a far more complex boat that will take a long time to build, a boat that from the first time I saw it I new I just have to make! Take care all Vaddoc

How about phosphorus-copper paste solder https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/163407180441 This is what I use, gives a light brass colour and paste is easier to use than bits of solder Vaddoc

Thanks Mark and Jim and all that hit the like button. A bit too early for an update but It's exciting seeing the shape of the hull slowly emerging. Boats are such beautiful things! Vaddoc

There is a paint section/thread with good info, have a look. Paint will bleed under ordinary masking tape or electrician tape, you need frog/Tamiya or similar. This tape must be carefully stored so edges do not get destroyed. For wood there is no adhesion issues but a primer will give a uniform colour on the surface. It is important to seal the wood though - many use Shellac and methylated spirits, I use decoart Americana water based sealer. Test on scrap wood, not the model! Vaddoc

This was very interesting Phill (and very well done!). I also had never heard of sacrificial sheathing before. Somehow though, I kind of think that, even though the expertise existed to properly spill and bend planks, it would be unlikely to spend time and effort in a military vessel, especially for a sacrificial layer that would not contribute to hull strength or water tightness. I think they just screwed the timber in, any way it seemed more time and material efficient, not far of what you ve done. Vaddoc

Time for a wee update! I did lots of work but have little to show, planking is a slow, labour intensive process. I need to cut the plank patterns for each side separately as the port and starboard planks are very close but not identical. I try to fit the edges reasonably close but I am not too fussed, with a bit of sanding and filler it will be fine. Also, I really should have hollowed the planks where they meet the frames at the turn of the bilge but it will be fine. The plank scarfing is a bit wonky but this will also be ok with some sanding. I realised that to progress further I had to mark all the remaining planks. One of the aft frames looked (and still looks) a bit wrong so I cut some of it off and overall I am not sure how the stern will end up, so some head scratching there is needed. Also, the sheer plank will continue as gunwales so this also needs some more thought. I am not sure I have enough pear to finish the planking, I ve managed so far not to waste any wood but today I made two wrong planks - this is a lot of waste! 5 planks are in and the run of all the remaining planks marked. Of course the width of the planks is all way off scale but Hercules had a metal hull and I just want to plank the hull - there is no reason though not to do it nicely! I think the planks so far run reasonably fair. The sheer also looks ok. Please do excuse the huge mess in the yard! Now, I may have a £200 gift card to spend and some money to add to it - I may get a milling machine! (Proxxon MF-70?) Best wishes to all Vaddoc

I don't think you should worry about the paint filling the gaps Phil, if anything it should make these stand out more.

@OldeManToadMy impression and experience: PVA glue is white, dries clear and has some forgiving opening time before it sets. Aliphatic glue is yellow wood glue, does not dry clear and sets very quickly - very little opening time if any. I use both but mainly the white PVA. Wood glues can be waterproof or not. @Dr PR This really looks interesting Phil. Is Duco cement gap filling to any degree or does it need good surface contact like PVA?

Thank you Mark. Well, I ve used epoxy for these joins, they are rock solid now!

Welcome GumDrop!

Very enjoyable journey Phil, just caught up with your build. 3/4 inch planks are very thin - what purpose did they serve? Vaddoc