uss frolick

Cheers John!
 
I'm not sure why you are comparing the body lines of the La Venus and the La Justice, two different ships, and expecting them to line up, even imperfectly. I've looked at so many draughts of Sane designed frigates over the years, that were supposedly sister-ships, and their outboard profiles don't even look remotely alike. Visually, it's almost like every French frigate is a one-off! If I were you, I would examine one of the MANY later British Admiralty as-actually-built draughts of Sane designed ships, and not one of the first earliest frigates like Venus.
 
And I don't believe that every ship attributed to Sane was actually designed by him. The classic example is La Renomme of 1806, later HMS Java, "said" to have been designed by Joel Sane in the records. Although her specific draughts do not survive, there is a surviving contemporary rigged model of La Renomme in the Musee de la Marine. Photographs of her bow-on show a midship section shape drastically different from Sane's classic, French apple-body. Instead, it shows a frigate more attributable to Forfait with the long "V-shape" dead-rise. (Forgive my French spelling throughout.) As it turns out, Forfait built many ships in the Nantes region - where Renomme/Java was built - and the draught of one frigate in particular from the NMM, known to have been a Forfait designed frigate, bears a striking resemblance to the model, and even includes two features unique to only that model and not seen on other draughts.
 
It's almost like since Sane designed so many ships of all types - hundreds - that whenever a question arose later on about who designed the mysterious "frigate X", about whom the historical records are at best fuzzy, the clerks might have said, "Uh, I don't know. The probability is high that Sane designed her."

Cheers John!
 
I'm not sure why you are comparing the body lines of the La Venus and the La Justice, two different ships, and expecting them to line up, even imperfectly. I've looked at so many draughts of Sane designed frigates over the years, that were supposedly sister-ships, and their outboard profiles don't even look remotely alike. Visually, it's almost like every French frigate is a one-off! If I were you, I would examine one of the MANY later British Admiralty as-actually-built draughts of Sane designed ships, and not one of the first earliest frigates like Venus.
 
And I don't believe that every ship attributed to Sane was actually designed by him. The classic example is La Renomme of 1806, later HMS Java, "said" to have been designed by Joel Sane in the records. Although her specific draughts do not survive, there is a surviving contemporary rigged model of La Renomme in the Musee de la Marine. Photographs of her bow-on show a midship section shape drastically different from Sane's classic, French apple-body. Instead, it shows a frigate more attributable to Forfait with the long "V-shape" dead-rise. (Forgive my French spelling throughout.) As it turns out, Forfait built many ships in the Nantes region - where Renomme/Java was built - and the draught of one frigate in particular from the NMM, known to have been a Forfait designed frigate, bears a striking resemblance to the model, and even includes two features unique to only that model and not seen on other draughts.
 
It's almost like since Sane designed so many ships of all types - hundreds - that whenever a question arose later on about who designed the mysterious "frigate X", about whom the historical records are at best fuzzy, the clerks might have said, "Uh, I don't know. The probability is high that Sane designed her."

Nothing like having curves thrown at you (pun intended!).

SPENT STEEL SHOT FROM SHOT-BLASTING
 
Endless uses.

 
GRAPESHOT
 

 
First off is find a tube, I used brass, that matches the bore size of desired cannon and cut to length of shot. Apply wax to the inside of the tube with an object that slides snug inside the tube(I used brass again).

 
Carefully select desired size shot and drop them loosely into the tube. DO NOT pack, lightly drop. It works best if at least 3 or more pieces can lay flat, side by side inside the tube.
 
Once the tube is filled, carefully drop a tiny bit of thin CA on top of the shot, let it sit for a couple of seconds, and then use the smaller tube to push out the mold.

 
Let the pieces dry hard, lightly file both ends and glue to a thin piece of wood with CA. Once dry, glue another piece to the other end the same way. Apply CA to the backside of the wood pieces and let dry hard.

 
Now the fun part. Sand or file the wood to match the bore diameter and thin the wood at the ends. Avoid sanding or scraping the shots because the dried CA will go white and look bad.
 
Carefully pick off any dried, white bits of CA. Use a dab of wax, or the sweat off your forehead at this point, and softly roll on the palm of your hand to remove any left over white flakes of CA. Continuing doing this until you achieve the desired amount.

The most important part, wax inside the tube and the push rod! If you don't, it may be stuck there for good. Most likely a few get botched and it also creates build up inside the tube. So if you want 6, make 12. If you're lucky more than six will turn out well.

There are two contemporary images of the Frigate United States made shortly after her launch. One is a painting, and the other a woodcut print. Both show not only a poop deck, but stern galleries, but the painting shows windows at gun-deck level only of the quarter-galleries. The wood cut shows the poop railings and a double decked quarter-gallery. The wood cut is certainly where Chapelle found his inspiration.
 
The color painting can be found in "The Frigates", The Sea Farers Series, Time/Life Books, 1979, page 6-7.
 
The woodcut can be found in "The Picture History of the U. S. Navy", 1956, Theodore Roscoe and Fred Freeman , Image 262. There is a small BW version of the painting on the same page as well.
 
I highly recommend picking up both books used if you can find them.

I think there was only one in each gallery for a frigate.

The only probable connection between the lower and upper roundhouse "facilities' was a lead pipe which ran through the bulwarks and down through the gun-deck quarter-gallery to drop "Admiral Brown" into the sea. The flushing facilities was certainly only a bucket of salt water kept filled by the Captain's servant (failure to maintain a ready supply at his peril!). Detail-oriented modelers might also want to add a small basket of tow, oakum or, the nineteenth century equivalent of Charmin Tissues, corn cobs. Ewww ...
 
The half windows are at the gun-deck level. 
 
But perhaps you might only need one roundhouse for the quarterdeck watch officers. Perhaps one side was a storage or signal flag locker?

Awesome, that's it Charley!
 
The curved partitions (labeled "Z") in the corners, where the quarterdeck meets the taffrail, are port and starboard water closets for the officers, the last cramped remnant of when the Frigate United States had a poop deck and a complete quarterdeck cabin. Even then, there was barely room to sit. The post-1809-rebuild era officers were surely reluctant to give up that amenity. This feature is shown on no other frigate's deck plan.

Frolick: Ok, just picked them both up for a few bucks on Amazon.  I love the Seafarer series    
 
Talos: That image I'm familiar with from the Chapelle book (though I do appreciate the figures for sizing).  I imagine both images (the HMS President as well) look like a good explanation of what the quarter galleries would probably look like assuming they remained double leveled past the war of 1812 and weren't converted to smaller ones like other frigates.  I'm hoping the inboard and outboard profiles from 1849 show a good level of detail.
 
On a sidenote here is a nice image of USS Adams from the Coker book.  Only painting of her i've ever see not sure how accurate she is,
 
  

If she's pink, does that make her the Victoria?

There are two contemporary images of the Frigate United States made shortly after her launch. One is a painting, and the other a woodcut print. Both show not only a poop deck, but stern galleries, but the painting shows windows at gun-deck level only of the quarter-galleries. The wood cut shows the poop railings and a double decked quarter-gallery. The wood cut is certainly where Chapelle found his inspiration.
 
The color painting can be found in "The Frigates", The Sea Farers Series, Time/Life Books, 1979, page 6-7.
 
The woodcut can be found in "The Picture History of the U. S. Navy", 1956, Theodore Roscoe and Fred Freeman , Image 262. There is a small BW version of the painting on the same page as well.
 
I highly recommend picking up both books used if you can find them.

I think there was only one in each gallery for a frigate.

The only probable connection between the lower and upper roundhouse "facilities' was a lead pipe which ran through the bulwarks and down through the gun-deck quarter-gallery to drop "Admiral Brown" into the sea. The flushing facilities was certainly only a bucket of salt water kept filled by the Captain's servant (failure to maintain a ready supply at his peril!). Detail-oriented modelers might also want to add a small basket of tow, oakum or, the nineteenth century equivalent of Charmin Tissues, corn cobs. Ewww ...
 
The half windows are at the gun-deck level. 
 
But perhaps you might only need one roundhouse for the quarterdeck watch officers. Perhaps one side was a storage or signal flag locker?

I think there was only one in each gallery for a frigate.

Bwahaha!!! Indeed you are correct. Id like to think we all watched/read the book Cross sections manowar by Biesty a few times to much amusement. Dont really want to know what they did with the cobs though

The only probable connection between the lower and upper roundhouse "facilities' was a lead pipe which ran through the bulwarks and down through the gun-deck quarter-gallery to drop "Admiral Brown" into the sea. The flushing facilities was certainly only a bucket of salt water kept filled by the Captain's servant (failure to maintain a ready supply at his peril!). Detail-oriented modelers might also want to add a small basket of tow, oakum or, the nineteenth century equivalent of Charmin Tissues, corn cobs. Ewww ...
 
The half windows are at the gun-deck level. 
 
But perhaps you might only need one roundhouse for the quarterdeck watch officers. Perhaps one side was a storage or signal flag locker?

Awesome, that's it Charley!
 
The curved partitions (labeled "Z") in the corners, where the quarterdeck meets the taffrail, are port and starboard water closets for the officers, the last cramped remnant of when the Frigate United States had a poop deck and a complete quarterdeck cabin. Even then, there was barely room to sit. The post-1809-rebuild era officers were surely reluctant to give up that amenity. This feature is shown on no other frigate's deck plan.

Ok great and yes I thought that's what you meant, though I am having a hard time picturing would it would look like if I was standing right next to it.  I am assuming what's inside is a room that is connected to the quarter galleries or are they possibly not connected and placed higher.  Hard to tell when looking over it vertically in 2D I wonder if there are other examples of this elsewhere but either way fascinating stuff.

They're completely unconnected. The quarter galleries are a deck below, on the gun deck, with a fairing on top that extends about halfway up the spar deck bulwarks. United State's were double-level, but I don't think they penetrated the spar deck bulkwarks. The WCs on the quarterdeck aren't structural parts, they're just scabbed onto the inside of the side timbers. Basically like sitting a pair of porta potties on the deck and wedged into the corners of the quarterdeck.
 
Chapelle has other plans that show them, mostly in smaller sloops and brigs. Similarly, and this isn't in Chapelle, but HMS Guerriere (the captured French/British frigate, not the US-built replacement) had a pair of non-structural but permanent WCs installed at the front of her gun deck, between the bridle and the first gunport (which I realize frolick posted a year ago). Looking up that post, there's a couple good shots of a gundeck roundhouse in the bow of United States that should help with you picturing it on her quarterdeck. Just imagine something like this, but curved and faired-in. http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/6470-martingale-dolphin-stricker-uss-united-states-44/?p=191584

Yep that makes perfect sense now thanks!  Still trying to think out the internal structure of the quarter galleries though if it had two levels how do the half windows factor into that. I'm going to have to place that order to Maryland silver when I get the extra funds.  He has those inboard and outboard plans from Gosport dated 1846 which is likely from her last refit and hopefully they will show the double level quarter galleries and should rest a few questions I have about the look of the vessel. 

Awesome, that's it Charley!
 
The curved partitions (labeled "Z") in the corners, where the quarterdeck meets the taffrail, are port and starboard water closets for the officers, the last cramped remnant of when the Frigate United States had a poop deck and a complete quarterdeck cabin. Even then, there was barely room to sit. The post-1809-rebuild era officers were surely reluctant to give up that amenity. This feature is shown on no other frigate's deck plan.

All historians agree that the Congress was built to Humphries 36-gun draught. It is fairly complete, given that most of the inboard profile is superimposed over the lines. With that, and the 1820-ish Charles Ware sail plan, one could make a reasonably accurate post-1812 model of her, except for the carvings and once again, that freakin stern! Makes me kinda wish that the British had captured her ... kinda.

I found this little gem in the stacks. I'm sure many have read it, but its new to me. Makes me want to cry ...

"306 OPERATIONS ON THE ATLANTIC COAST.

Confederate reports and correspondence relative Jo the destruction and
abandonment of Norfolk navy yard.

[Telegram.]

NORFOLK, April22, 1861.
North left for Charleston to-day; I answer your dispatch. The Penn-
sylcania, Merrimack, Germantown, Raritan, Columbia, and Dolphin are
burned to the waters edge and sunk. The Delaware, Columbus, and
Plymouth are sunk. All can be raised; the Plymouth easily; not
much injured. The Germantown crushed and sunk by the falling of
shears. Her battery, new and complete, uninjured by fire; can be
recovered. The most abominable vandalism at the yard. Destruction
less than might be expected. The two lower ship houses burned, with
the New York, line of battle ship, on the stocks. Also the rigging loft,
sail loft, and gun-carriage depot, with all the pivot gun carriages and
many others. No other buildings burned. The metal work of the car-
riages will be recovered; most of it good. About 4,000 shells thrown
overboard; can be recovered. The Germantowns battery will be up
and ready for service to-morrow. In ordnance building all small arms
broken and thrown overboard will be fished up. The brass howitzers
thrown overboard are up. The Merrimack has 2,200 10-pound cartridges
in her magazine in water-tight tanks. The flag of Virginia floats over
the yard. Only eight guns, 32-pounders, destroyed; about 1,000 or more
from 11-inch to 32-pounders taken, and ready for our cause. Many of
them are ready in batteries. We saved about 130 gun carriages; all
saved at St. Helena [Va.]. Many thousands of shells and shot, from
11-inch to 32-pounders, safe. All the machinery uninjured. Magazine
captured, with 2,000 barrels of powder and vast numbers of shells and
quantities of fixed ammunition. An attempt made to blow up the dry
dock failed. Everything broken that they could break. Private trunks
broken open and officers clothing and that of their wives stolen.
Glorious news! General Gwynn just read me a telegram; it comes
from a reliable source; the New York Regiment, attempting to march
through Maryland, was met half waybetween Marlborough and Annapo-
lis and cut all to pieces.
G. T. SINCLAIR.
S. H. MALLORY,
Secretary of the Navy."

I found this little gem in the stacks. I'm sure many have read it, but its new to me. Makes me want to cry ...

"306 OPERATIONS ON THE ATLANTIC COAST.

Confederate reports and correspondence relative Jo the destruction and
abandonment of Norfolk navy yard.

[Telegram.]

NORFOLK, April22, 1861.
North left for Charleston to-day; I answer your dispatch. The Penn-
sylcania, Merrimack, Germantown, Raritan, Columbia, and Dolphin are
burned to the waters edge and sunk. The Delaware, Columbus, and
Plymouth are sunk. All can be raised; the Plymouth easily; not
much injured. The Germantown crushed and sunk by the falling of
shears. Her battery, new and complete, uninjured by fire; can be
recovered. The most abominable vandalism at the yard. Destruction
less than might be expected. The two lower ship houses burned, with
the New York, line of battle ship, on the stocks. Also the rigging loft,
sail loft, and gun-carriage depot, with all the pivot gun carriages and
many others. No other buildings burned. The metal work of the car-
riages will be recovered; most of it good. About 4,000 shells thrown
overboard; can be recovered. The Germantowns battery will be up
and ready for service to-morrow. In ordnance building all small arms
broken and thrown overboard will be fished up. The brass howitzers
thrown overboard are up. The Merrimack has 2,200 10-pound cartridges
in her magazine in water-tight tanks. The flag of Virginia floats over
the yard. Only eight guns, 32-pounders, destroyed; about 1,000 or more
from 11-inch to 32-pounders taken, and ready for our cause. Many of
them are ready in batteries. We saved about 130 gun carriages; all
saved at St. Helena [Va.]. Many thousands of shells and shot, from
11-inch to 32-pounders, safe. All the machinery uninjured. Magazine
captured, with 2,000 barrels of powder and vast numbers of shells and
quantities of fixed ammunition. An attempt made to blow up the dry
dock failed. Everything broken that they could break. Private trunks
broken open and officers clothing and that of their wives stolen.
Glorious news! General Gwynn just read me a telegram; it comes
from a reliable source; the New York Regiment, attempting to march
through Maryland, was met half waybetween Marlborough and Annapo-
lis and cut all to pieces.
G. T. SINCLAIR.
S. H. MALLORY,
Secretary of the Navy."

I found this little gem in the stacks. I'm sure many have read it, but its new to me. Makes me want to cry ...

"306 OPERATIONS ON THE ATLANTIC COAST.

Confederate reports and correspondence relative Jo the destruction and
abandonment of Norfolk navy yard.

[Telegram.]

NORFOLK, April22, 1861.
North left for Charleston to-day; I answer your dispatch. The Penn-
sylcania, Merrimack, Germantown, Raritan, Columbia, and Dolphin are
burned to the waters edge and sunk. The Delaware, Columbus, and
Plymouth are sunk. All can be raised; the Plymouth easily; not
much injured. The Germantown crushed and sunk by the falling of
shears. Her battery, new and complete, uninjured by fire; can be
recovered. The most abominable vandalism at the yard. Destruction
less than might be expected. The two lower ship houses burned, with
the New York, line of battle ship, on the stocks. Also the rigging loft,
sail loft, and gun-carriage depot, with all the pivot gun carriages and
many others. No other buildings burned. The metal work of the car-
riages will be recovered; most of it good. About 4,000 shells thrown
overboard; can be recovered. The Germantowns battery will be up
and ready for service to-morrow. In ordnance building all small arms
broken and thrown overboard will be fished up. The brass howitzers
thrown overboard are up. The Merrimack has 2,200 10-pound cartridges
in her magazine in water-tight tanks. The flag of Virginia floats over
the yard. Only eight guns, 32-pounders, destroyed; about 1,000 or more
from 11-inch to 32-pounders taken, and ready for our cause. Many of
them are ready in batteries. We saved about 130 gun carriages; all
saved at St. Helena [Va.]. Many thousands of shells and shot, from
11-inch to 32-pounders, safe. All the machinery uninjured. Magazine
captured, with 2,000 barrels of powder and vast numbers of shells and
quantities of fixed ammunition. An attempt made to blow up the dry
dock failed. Everything broken that they could break. Private trunks
broken open and officers clothing and that of their wives stolen.
Glorious news! General Gwynn just read me a telegram; it comes
from a reliable source; the New York Regiment, attempting to march
through Maryland, was met half waybetween Marlborough and Annapo-
lis and cut all to pieces.
G. T. SINCLAIR.
S. H. MALLORY,
Secretary of the Navy."