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Marcus.K.

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  1. Today I want to present you a historical excurse which has nothing to do with my model build - except its about another story in my subject Old Ironsides history: U.S. Frigate Constitution was in Annapolis when 1861 the war was starting. I just found an image which immetiatly caught my attention - mainly because of a technical feature I noticed before I recognized the story told in that picture: The title is: "The Eighth Massachusetts Regiment taking possession of U.S. ship Constitution at Annapolis" The picture is from "Frank Leslie's illustrated newspaper, vol. 11, no. 285 (1861 May 4), p. 385" and its done after a description by "our special artist". source: https://www.loc.gov/resource/cph.3b15950/ There are 2 problems with this picture: 1. the ship visible in this scene can not really be US Frigate Constitution. We see an extra deck - quarter- or foredeck - but Old Ironsides never had any extra deck. She always had a flush Spar- or Weather Deck. Also the size / width of that deck seems to be much wider than what we would expect from the - I admit: big - frigate. 2. This event seems to be not real. Some days later the officiers of Old Ironsides seemed to see the need of clarification which they did by an article in the New York Times: Source: https://www.nytimes.com/1861/05/06/archives/the-constitution-at-annapolis-official-statement-of-facts-in-regard.html Here the relevant quote: I have no idea by now who invented this thrilling story about a capture and re-capture - but what I noticed was another interesting detail - and that was, what was caught my eye in the beginning: On deck fixed to the rigging is a strange "feature" I once saw in models I observed in Lissabon´s (Portugal) marine museum years ago. There some models showed this "chimney" done out of sails - a technology obviously used to force air movement in the lower decks and by that cooling them. A simple "air conditioning"-system. So here it is again: known and used in US Navy. Does anyone has any information about that steamer "General Butler" mentioned by the ships crew? It is not the one which sank in the great lakes (since that General Butler isn´t a steamer 🙂 ). Just curious.
  2. That is amazing work!!! Really great! I very much like what modern technology (CAD & 3D printing) is generating in our days - a new type of ship model building. And especially for the steel ships its a really great way to come to very impressive and beautiful models. Even more since you even may simulate the segmented builds of many of those ships. In a german forum someone is building U-boats in that segmented way - really cool. In wooden sailing ships model builds that approach is starting to generate some very interesting details which may be hard or time consuming to do in wood. The "composite" builds done in that segment of model ship building - the combination of injection molded parts of kits, styren sheets and strips,, resin molds, classical wood and by now 3D printed parts is changing the way models are done. Of course there will be always purists building very artistic and very beautiful pure wooden beauties. And those models are and will ever be high points of modelism. But as soon as painting and even ageing is required to gain another effect on your model 3D print is an addional effective way to get to the result. Your ships here are - in my humble opinion - up to now another coronation of another, new segment of modelism. Very cool ships - beautiful redesigned and build ! Did I miss photos of floated models? .. will check again the previous pages.
  3. Cosmic energy. Now I know whats missing on my side!!! 🤣 They are indeed very very nice! Wonderful, very cool appearance!!! A bit I doubt, that there would be a hoop in the center position in those barrels. Don' t you fear that a slight contact on them would possibly move them into a position beside the center and since that would be a bit smaller in diameter the hoop would come loose?
  4. They are in fact very nice ! But - maybe I am too impatient and you already plan to do them - or - maybe it´s because I just don´t know enough about old barrels and their technique is differing from barrels I know - .. .. but wouldn´t you need some hoops on those barrles to keep them tight?
  5. Spectacular ! In my point of view this kit seems to be nice 2-decker too .. Cool conversion! Excellen!
  6. Concerning using such a Wheel Barrow on softer ground: I remember my father having used a wheelbarrow during the build of our house and car port on very soft, wet ground with very heavy load in it (wet ground!) by having wooden planks along the way he needed to go - as a pathway for the wheelbarrow. Anyone using this wheelbarrow-gun-thing on (soft) land would need wooden planks and of course a lot of helping hands.. Concering steel around the wheels: This is a 6-pounder gun and its carriage produced in furnace hope - the same foundary where US Frigate Constitution got some of her guns from. Those wheels have steel bands around them. Of course: those are not very heavy compared to the 24 pounders.. maybe in this case the load was acceptable for the decks. It might be different with more heavy guns of course - but I believe: steel may have been needed to keep the wheels in shape under the load.. To sum up: I think such a design may be useful and possible
  7. Hey Rob, I know I am late, sorry to pull this up by now (in fact: I am not sorry at all 🙂) .. and I sure saw that thread before.. but now I really have to express my admiration for this so interesting work. I LOVE to see the ships used and as in real life. And Cutty Sark as Ferreira of course is a so cool subject. Having all those photos in that interesting book. Thanks for showing and sharing this admirable work!
  8. Thanks Druxey, just stepped across this interesting thread and that very nice insight in Cutty Sark´s figure heads actual and past history. Some months (years by now?) ago I started digging into the "theme" carving (just theoretically by now) since I would like to reconstruct the appearance of my favorite subject, the US Frigate Constitution in hear earlier years. I collected photos of works of William Rush and the Skillin Family who DID the design Rush was proposing. And I try to learn about the Allegories used in the Washington, Adams and Jefferson Administration for decorating ships - since there are at least 2 more figures (if not more) to be represented beside Lady Liberty and Lady Justice (the two only written mentioned ones we know about by now). If only my Art and History teachers would know how much I am attracted by this subject today, since they just knew that ignorant boy who´s only intellectual interest was natural science and astronautics .. they would be so much surprised! .. and how poor their efforts have been to attract my attention for this interesting fields.. But boy, how frustrated they must have been with such a bunch of ignorants in front of them :-))) Does someone of this carving-addicted here has an idea where I may learn more about American Allegories and ship carvings on the early American Ships? Of course I am aware of @uss frolick´s very interesting posts for the "stern view" on different ships (thanks here for that by the way). And my Brewington ("Shipcarvers of North America") of course I got and studied long time ago ... 🙂 But I am looking for any help, book, posts, souces about this very special subject and appreciate every hint. And I LOVE the way those british shipkeepers deal with their Nanny! Thanks for sharing!
  9. Hy Rock, a very, very nice and interesting Model. And a very interesting representation! Cool build! Love it! What scale is it? .. and .. how realiable are the plans for that model? How much of the original plans has been available? I guess Korea had to fight with loss of ancient knowledge and written papers / letters due to war damages during the centuries as much as the area which is by now Germany. For example: my mother was able to re-construct our relatives up to about the 30-years war - and before there is nothing written available due to Wallenstein and Gustav Adolf (and others) way of warfare. I would think, Korea had a comparable history with Japanese and Chinese and maybe also other conquerers "passing" the Korean peninsule frequently, right? Due to your interesting post I am about to learn more about Yi Sun-Sin and that part of history. Thanks for that! I noticed a while ago that history as described in "western world" is just ignoring history in far east. For example: we name the "battle of Leipzig" (1813 - Napoleon Wars) as "battle of nations" (which may be o.k.) but very often it is claimed to be the "biggest battle in history up to then" .. while there have been much bigger battles in far east even in ancient times and we just ignor them here in "western world". Same for ship building - those turtles and other eastern ship types are just known by a few. Its cool you show such models! Thanks for presenting this here - and good luck and a lot of fun with your future builds!
  10. Sir, this is a beautiful and so interesting building log of a so beautiful model and ship! Excellent work perfect presented!
  11. Concering the meaning of "quarters" .. I found this interesting little summary: Source: https://www.dailywritingtips.com/the-many-meanings-of-quarter/ First idea: does McHenry mean with Quarters : "left and right" .. in the meaning of "west and east" .. but that´s may too thin soup.. Second idea: the therm "Quarter" seems in ships to be refered to the "sides of the stern". ... Well, why that? Why would the SIDE of the stern be a quarter? .. Maybe because this is the classical area where the officiers and captains had their "quarters", their cabins? Then McHenry´s remark would really fit with Basses positioning of the two ladies. While I struggled with that postion - thinking the quarters are the stern side of the quarter galleries. By now I learned that - yes - there are quarter GALLERIES - but they are mounted to the Quarters as it seems! So the ladies sketched so nice by Billy Bass are exactly where the cabins of the captain and the commodore (or first officer) would have been - left and right of the after cabin. Well not exactly maybe in the case of our big frigates. The deck plan of US Frigate United States shows the cabins being at the sides - but not being connected to the stern. That was remaining only for the after cabin which was the common cabin for captain and squadrons commodore - if on board - or first officer if no commodore was on board. If someone wonders why I do such thinking: I learned by now that very often we misinterpret things because we "think" we know the meaning. But very often - especially in historical or in special fields the modern understanding of things may differ - and even in old time, meaning did change sometimes and we are not aware of all possible meanings.
  12. Dear Ladies, Gentlemen, I have a question to the community. Since I am too far away and will not (at least not in next future) be able to examinate the beautiful Corné-Paintings.. So to everyone who had a chance to see them: Can you pls. tell me, if you look / had a look the real paintings: ARE THERE MORE THAN 2 PERSONS/FIGURES on that Corné-Stern visible? I know - there are 2 Paintings by Corné about that "siege of Tripolis": a wide one, painted in 1805 ordered and accepted by Cmd. Preble - who needed to show his action to the pubic since there was so much interest in the deeds of the new hero: And there is the smaller one, done in 1807 - in which according to William Bass in his above mentioned book - the ships, being arranged much more close to each other - are painted in about 5:4 size compared to the very first picture. I was trying to find out where which painting is right now represented to the public ... but I can right now not recollect my findings. Does someone of you know? I tried to see in a zoomed copy of the 1807 painting - but its hard to tell: William Bass saw there the 2 Figures - representing Justice and Freedom - as described by Secretary of War, James McHenry in a paper defining the intended Stern decoration of all six frigates "the stern of all six original frigates "should be all alike to show they belong to one family and represented by an Eagle in the center with constellations around him, suported on each Quarter by the figures of Liberty and Justice" - found in M. V. Brewingeons book: Shipcarvers of North America. William Basses reconstuction is reprinted in K.-H. Marquardts AotS "Constitution": see the top right represenation I guess, Bass arranged the two mentioned ladies between the cabins windows and the "windows" at the stern side of the galleries.. since that may best fit to the statement: ".. supported on each quarter ..". But I wondered: does that position really fit to the statement? Is with "quarter" really the area of the quartergalleries meant? I would think a "support" is much better done by that two ladies directly left and right of the center figure (the presumed eagle). ARE those two big ladies (which Bass did cut their arms) at "the quarter"? And even if: who may then be the two ladies which are at the edge of the gallery looking outwards? Tyrone Martin saw there crossed cannons and balls above the eagle. Does anyone have seen evidence for such interpretation in the real painting? The Eagle: I found the following description of the United States Seal - and I think one can see that scroll (in white) swung right and left side of the eagles head ... Source: https://statesymbolsusa.org/symbol-official-item/national-us/state-seal/united-states-seal I think this seal of 1782 would represent pretty good, what I would expect on the ships stern: Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Seal_of_the_United_States I see in that round area in the center top that mentioned cloud .. so that the eagles head and the scroll must be below .. and that is where I see that white serpentine line .. So to summarize: Would you be able to help me understanding what is REALLY visible in the two paintings by Corné? Anyone who had a chance to really SEE these drawings? I know that @Force9 had done pictures - but the copy he kindly did send to me is not as clear as that online-zoom you see in the beginning of this post. So do you see the figures, where Bass saw them? Are there cherubs outside of those two "minor" sitting ladies next to the eagle? Are there sitting ladies next to that eagle? Did someone see cannons and balls on top of the eagle? Are the big blotches between the galleries stern windows REALLY figures ? I am curious to hear your opinion and know-how in this.
  13. 1. Constitution - Superfrigate of the many Faces - A tribute to the Basses Years ago I got this nice book by William Bass and his wife in which they describe their findings and their reconstruction of US Frigate Constitutions "Second Phase" as they called it. The years after launch and Quasi War with France - and before the War 1812 - the times of Preble and the Barbary War. Since I saw this beautiful book which was published privatly and therefor did not get the audience it deserves, I did fall in love with this beautiful ship! The Basses based their reconstruction mainly on Felice Corné´s paintings done in 1803 (Side view) 1805 (?) and 1807 (Battle of Tripolis). This one for shure you all know very well. Its - as far as we know by today - the very first visual description of Old Ironsides - done by Felice Corné in Summer 1803 most likely. The Basses did brief investigations even on which viewing angle the artist must have had for his sketches and they could prove that Corné did do really intensive studies of his object. But isn´t the ship a beauty here? Ochre gun strike, no bulkward on foredeck, single dolphin striker, open galion and - that impressive Hercules. Nevertheless, as we will see later: this interpretation causes headaches (at least in my little brain). Here now one of the Tripolis Paintings: Source: https://www.mainememory.net/artifact/6155 You can increase the image if you click on the picture on the Maine Historical Societies Homepage (link). Look at that beautiful lines, the two yellow stripes above the gun deck - and note the position of the channels on the lower of those lines: and here the beautiful Stern of the ship in its early phase: She was a beauty in ochre and black, some white, yellow and maybe a bit gold? .. and a thrilling sight with all that guns! In my eyes the ships earlier appearance is of much more grace and elegance than in her later designs. Fortunatly the real ship is getting closer and closer to that design again with the restorations since Tyrone Martin started that process. But maybe the most beautiful sight she must have been as she was planned: with complete open bulkwards - just as Humphrey intented her to be: Nevertheless: my plan is to rework and pimp the beautiful Revell kit which is ment to show her 1812-15 configuration - but which has some "errors" in it and which does not totally fit to her 1803 appearance. And this 1803-4 appearance - before leaving to the Mediterean Sea - that is my goal. I imagine by now a situation in which the ship is about to be fitted out for sea - maybe some weeks before the above shown departure of the ship takes place. Still with only long guns on the quarder deck... This build will be the very first for me since about 35 years. I was doing a Cutty Sark 1/144 (without proper rigging and bad painting) and a very nice Spanish Men of War in 1/72 - this time with Revell instructed but fully rigging (boy was I proud !) .. So I need to re-learn during the build all the needed techniques. Oh, I was mistaken: I started some years ago the build of the Revell Charles W. Morgan - but the "rush hour of life" did stop that efforts. Now, in times of Corona and possible loss of job I believe I need a time out for some hours a week from crazy daily hectic .. and "if not now, then when?" shall I start with this beauty. I hope you join me in my efforts and I am open for any advice and hint. Thanks for watching me.
  14. Very interesting discussion! Thanks for that, gentlemen. Does anyone know when that habbit to store the hammocks on the bulkwards top started? Are there any hints in texts, paintings or models? .. and if: especially for American Navy?
  15. In my humble opinion: the very best source with lowest chance for historical mistakes are all the books of Cmd. Tyrone Martin who was the ships commanding captain during her 1970ies refits and who started his own research. His books are based on decates of investigation and research. He regulary reworks his books and did eliminate previously done mistakes. "A most fortunate ship" being the best known and his bestseller. His other books had to be published in a less professional manner .. which is sad. They deserve a wider publicity! T. Martin was (is?) selling a ringbinder he named "A Close up". I got a version and its full with information - mostly chronolocical statements out of logs concerning the ships appearance or outfitting - all of them sorted by subject (decks, guns, etc.). Very good primary sources! But of course written only and with room for interpretation.. He too added some copies of drawings and sketches. Unfortunatly when I recieved my version the copy-quality was not as good as today´s internet source are sometimes. But.. you can find many of those graphical information by now in internet if you know what to look for. I am not sure if it is still available... pls. Check his page "captains ckerk" http://captainsclerk.info/ By the way: this page is also a great source for information as it presents parts of what is written in the Close Up or in his books. A wonderful book to read if you are interested in the life on board: Martin, Tyrone G. "The Constitution's Finest Fight, 1815." Its the written report of a crew member in 1815. William Bass' wonderful book "USS Constitution - Superfrigate of the many faces" too had to be published private. Its a nice research about the ships appearance in about 1803, based on inspection of the early Felice Corne paintings. He did have discussions with T. Martin and I think it is a very interesting work and very helpful if you are intersted in the ships earlier and very nice appearance. But as mentioned above: hard to find. Then there is Olof Eriksens "All sails up and flying" - a wonderful study of the rigging in 1814 based on the Isaac Hull Model ins PEM in Salem, the oldest known model done by crewmembers and presented to Captain Hull in 1812. He did compare Bradys Handbook for midshipmens with notes by a real mifshipman of Old Ironsides he recieved by Cmd. Martin and did tryouts on his huge model to find the most likely solutions. He too, as Mr. Bass, had exchanged information with T. Martin and later recomments this book too .. although its a bit hard to "read" (Mr. Eriksen loves repetitions). But the drawings will be a perfect guideline for the rigging. Those books and collections deserve much more publicity and also a more professional publishing. To my surprise even T. Martin could only publish some of his books with a classical publisher. W. Bass had to print his book in private and therefore there are not many available. Eriksens book is much too small. He provides dozens of drawings which for themself would require a wider format. But I learned the publisher wasn´t willing to invest in that. Brady´s "the Kedge Anchor" is a kind of a primary source. Its a "handbook" for Midshipmen and describes important features and processes on a ship of that age. Usually you will find editions from after the 1840s or reprints of those time. .and of course things have changed from 1800, 1812 to the 1840´s. But: I would guess about 95% was still the same - and therefore you can´t be much wrong. Brady describes the American way of marine issues. Don´t follow Steel and Lever as they describe the British Fashion. Eriksen did a comparision about different rigging styles and compared them with the Isaac Hull Model - and his finding is: Constitution was rigged - what a surprise - in American style! Marquardt by the way did drawings based on British. Of course: I would guess about 85-90% is very compareable and only experts in the field of rigging would notice the difference.. so it depends on whom do you want to impress .. or what do you expect from yourself. All those books should come in a classical leather binder with golden letters on them. All of them are really interesting and valuable for modelist and enthusiats. Gillmers nice book "Old Ironsides - raise, decline ..." is also very interesting, but I believe, Mr. Martin mentioned that there are mistakes, and also I believe he did not much like parts of the ships restoration done with Mr. Gillmers help. The art of Gilkerson inside the book is of course really beatiful and a lot of information in the book is worth reading it. A. Tolls "Six frigates" is a very nice reading about the ships background history and destroys a lot of glorification and myths around many contributer of the ship. Mr. Martin onced explained to me it would be full of historical mistakes, but he admitted: its a good reading. K.H. Marquardts AotS book "the 44-gun Frigate USS Constitution" is of course also a beautiful and professional published collection of drawings and information. Unfortunatly it seems to be done in a hurry since the author obviously did not refer to the - I have to admit: sometimes disputed - Isaac Hull model. He also seems to not look too precisly into the ships hull´s design - since his design is very much influenced by british or european ship building tradtions. Also his rigging is not american style. His reconstructions of the ships stern in different times I very much doubt. He is in fact a respected expert in design, function and history of ships of Age of Sail - but this book is not his masterpiece I think. It is very good to be inspired and fascinated - but be careful to take over details. I have seen and read many others.. there are of coures more nice books out there ... I did not yet mention Howard Chappelles works. They are by now "classics" .. but in this is the danger. They are old by now - and just because something was new and sensational some years ago it must not be true: I learned to start mistrusting the "capacities" and "authorities" - since they often begin to ignore new findings and stop progress by the weight of their expertise. Nevertheless: his books are remarkable sources of know how about the American Navy´s.. Those are my main books as source for the ships design. You may notice that I am a "fan" of Tyrone Martin - although I believe he too may have wrong understanding in this and that. I had the luck to have - years ago - a nice converstion via several emails with him. I have the impression that his studies have been really gone deep over a professional life span now - and he has gained the best overview about all issues concerning the ships design and history. Since in my understanding many questions will not been answered with certainty - so its best to try to have the best "statistically" answers. Having - if not proof - then at least a good evidence by comparing several independ sources. Primary sources are best of course - and Cmd. Martin did his lessons. I guess there are only a few persons in the world who may have read as much primary source about Old Ironsides as Cmd. Martin. .. if at all. Thats why I try to study beside the books - photos of the Isaac Hull Model in PEM Salem MA for the ships appearance in 1812 - paintings by Felice Corne (1803 side view, 1804 Tripolis and the 1812 battle paintings) - paintings and engravings of Roux or Baugean and others about US Frigate President and United States - NMM drawings of US Frigate President (as they are available in Internet) - deck plans of US Frigate United States by .. was it Ware? - the USS Constitutions Museums Blog - many, many photo´s and pictures in internet.. Hope this is helpful and wish you a lot of fun with that beautiful and impressive subject "Old Ironsides".
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