S lay or Z lay?

[Izzy Madd]

Hi,

 

I'm confused by the talk of Z or S twist. I understand the differences, direction. What I don't understand is why?

 

Especially after looking at some pictures of the Victory which I'm about to start. As there are clearly several ropes of each kind same size and same sorts of use.

 

So when would which be used?

 

Or was it a question of which way they ran the machine that day?

 

Or would it normally be one for ropes under a certain diameter and the other for cables?

 

Any help would be gladly received.

 

Izzy

[Tallshiptragic]

All lines for sail handling - sheets, tacks, halyards, downhauls, braces are 'z' all shrouds and larger stays are 's' as they are made from 'z' line.

[Izzy Madd]

All lines for sail handling - sheets, tacks, halyards, downhauls, braces are 'z' all shrouds and larger stays are 's' as they are made from 'z' line.

Thanks for that. Is there a certain diameter or just the need for re twisted to make a cable? Not the best worded question I know. But the best I can manage at this time of night.

 

Also I'm a little confused by this picture

 

 

As there are ropes of All sizes but going in both directions? With no perticular reason.

 

Please if you can set me right

[Tallshiptragic]

All the lines look to be 'Z' twist right hand lay. Only the large standing line on the first caronade is 's' though the next caronade is 'z'. Victory is a museum ship so perhaps they just used what's on hand in the loft. I mentioned in a similar topic that most rope is 'Z' twist on all working tall ships I've sailed on and only the thick shrouds and stays(main, fore,mizzen) - the lower ones are 's' as they are made using three strands of 'z' twist rope. I was on endeavour last refit when all rigging was changed over. All our rope was made in the uk and shipped to Australia as its all traditional hemp line. So don't worry too much about the diameter and the mix like in those photos from the Victory. You would be very accurate in making your shrouds and stays 's' twist using 'z' twist line and all running lines 'z' twist. Both endeavour and Duyfken and Europa - all ships I've crewed on have their rigging in this way. Even Leeuwin is the same. All running rig is 'z' twist so they work they lay the same way. Our standing rigging on Leeuwin is steel lines which are three strands of 'z' twist to make one large 's' twist cable. I just asked my captain on Leeuwin- she spent 15years on endeavour from bosun to chief mate. She agrees, also stated you won't have a mix of running rigging of 'z' and 's' it will all be one lay and usually 'z' lay line. Only the shrouds and stays are 's' as they're made from 'z' rope. Hope this helps.

[Izzy Madd]

All the lines look to be 'Z' twist right hand lay. Only the large standing line on the first caronade is 's' though the next caronade is 'z'. Victory is a museum ship so perhaps they just used what's on hand in the loft. I mentioned in a similar topic that most rope is 'Z' twist on all working tall ships I've sailed on and only the thick shrouds and stays(main, fore,mizzen) - the lower ones are 's' as they are made using three strands of 'z' twist rope. I was on endeavour last refit when all rigging was changed over. All our rope was made in the uk and shipped to Australia as its all traditional hemp line. So don't worry too much about the diameter and the mix like in those photos from the Victory. You would be very accurate in making your shrouds and stays 's' twist using 'z' twist line and all running lines 'z' twist. Both endeavour and Duyfken and Europa - all ships I've crewed on have their rigging in this way. Even Leeuwin is the same. All running rig is 'z' twist so they work they lay the same way. Our standing rigging on Leeuwin is steel lines which are three strands of 'z' twist to make one large 's' twist cable. I just asked my captain on Leeuwin- she spent 15years on endeavour from bosun to chief mate. She agrees, also stated you won't have a mix of running rigging of 'z' and 's' it will all be one lay and usually 'z' lay line. Only the shrouds and stays are 's' as they're made from 'z' rope. Hope this helps.

Thanks. It's a great help. I did wonder if it was a case of the photo being whatever was at hand. And also assumed as you say ropes were only s twist when reworked to form a cable, excuse my inaccurate naming, I'm trying to understand before fixing actual titles to things. As its the look I wish to capture as much as anything and being a landlubber and dyslexic names don't change the job things do.

 

Thanks again for the authorative answer. While I'll have to look up some of the correct names the main question is answered. And I have a detailed description to refer to.

 

Sorry to be so thick, thanks for being so helpful

 

Izzy

[Tallshiptragic]

Not a problem Izzy, and I wouldn't say that you're thick at all. I'm sure most people hadn't even realised rope layed one way or another so it's a fair question. Not the simplest to answer but hopefully you have a grasp now.

[Izzy Madd]

Not a problem Izzy, and I wouldn't say that you're thick at all. I'm sure most people hadn't even realised rope layed one way or another so it's a fair question. Not the simplest to answer but hopefully you have a grasp now.

Far more than a grasp. And now I can stop trying to sort out which should be S and which Z and concentrate on learning the names and making the ropewalk. As I didn't know if I'd be swapping everything around to do have one way and the rest the other. But as its only multiple rope into a cable, sorry it's just keeping it in terms I understand, that is S twist. Then I can go ahead and make the ropewalk as I wanted as the change over will be all in one go so being a little more complicated isn't an issue. I may even make one for each way. Just like making anything really so it give me a good excuse :-) thanks agan

[Tallshiptragic]

You're right john, they both are. Though then compared to some of victory's guns and endeavour's which I know. They're all right hand lay, so I still say that they've used what's on hand as far as those breech lines go. There isn't a reason say stronger or not for either.

[Izzy Madd]

You're right john, they both are. Though then compared to some of victory's guns and endeavour's which I know. They're all right hand lay, so I still say that they've used what's on hand as far as those breech lines go. There isn't a reason say stronger or not for either.

And as far as I'm concerned that's good enough reason to go with right hand lay for none cabled. As its not as if I'm rebuilding the original I just wanted and have got confirmation as to which was right est. in that it may have been determined by which side of the ship they were on but all the same will be fine as its simpler to make and looks uniform and the cabled ones will add a source of conversation as to why they are the other way. And I can say "go and fight it out with Tallshiptragic in Perth". Always a good start to the day when I can blame someone on the other side of the world :-).

 

I've been asking this question of a number of people, on this and other forums. But yours was the clearest and most helpful. As I'm happy to go with right hand, I'll check that later, lay. And as for anyone else they are welcome to make and re rig my model if they want to. Just let me finish it first. :-)

[jbshan]

 

This is cable on HMS Victory.  It is made from three strands of already made rope, so 9 strands, 3 X 3, to make one cable, and you can see the lines of the rope used to make up the cable.  It is quite distinctive in appearance.  3 ropes made up left hand make into one cable made right hand.  A 'cable' was 100 fathoms, 600 ft., and since about 1/4 of the length was lost in making up rope, upwards of 750 to 1000 ft. was needed to build a ropewalk.

Additionally, I believe from my research that it would be wormed full length, a strand of small line being run in each of the cont lines, to help fill in the 'trough' in between the strands and keep the mud, stones, etc. from damaging the cable.  The whole thing would be well tarred for waterproofing as well.  A friend has described it as 'like a length of iron rebar' in stiffness.

When USF Consitution was fitting out for the first time, some 300 to 400 people carried her cable from the ropewalk down to the harbor.

[popeye2sea]

58ca3ac9acf6dda5de2cd33fb055377d.jpg

 

This is cable on HMS Victory.  It is made from three strands of already made rope, so 9 strands, 3 X 3, to make one cable, and you can see the lines of the rope used to make up the cable.  It is quite distinctive in appearance.  3 ropes made up left hand make into one cable made right hand.  A 'cable' was 100 fathoms, 600 ft., and since about 1/4 of the length was lost in making up rope, upwards of 750 to 1000 ft. was needed to build a ropewalk.

Additionally, I believe from my research that it would be wormed full length, a strand of small line being run in each of the cont lines, to help fill in the 'trough' in between the strands and keep the mud, stones, etc. from damaging the cable.  The whole thing would be well tarred for waterproofing as well.  A friend has described it as 'like a length of iron rebar' in stiffness.

When USF Consitution was fitting out for the first time, some 300 to 400 people carried her cable from the ropewalk down to the harbor.

That would be 3 right hand lay ropes made up into a left hand lay cable.  Anchor cable was never wormed or parcelled except for a temporary service clapped on at the point where it passed through the hawse holes to prevent chafe.  Too much water would be trapped in the rope if it was wormed and parcelled and that would promote rot.  Sometimes a length of chain was used for the first portion near the anchor in order to help set the anchor and reduce damage from the cable resting on the sea bed.

[dafi]

There was a thread in MSW.1 but it vanished ...

 

It all starts that usually right handed people spun the yarn. These are laid/twisted several times, each time changing direction. Thus the "normal" ropes result in a Z-twist for conformity and easy splicing.

 

If stronger ropes are needed, three or 4 ropes (sometimes with a core) are laid/twisted again with change of direction, this resulting in the S-twist. Those to be found on anchor cables and main and fore shrouds (mizzen to be checked). Steel somewhere mentions from which diameter the rope should be changed to cable, my memory says 9 inch. If thinner, cables were called cablets.

 

It took me some time to find in Nares, that the guns used in the 1860ies used left handed S-twist ropes. In the making, at one stage, the change of direction is not done, thus resulting the rope to be more flexible to go round small diameters and being more elastic in strain - both perfect for the breech and the ring - , but on the other hand soaking more water, that is why not used in rigging (extra weight if wet).

 

Older pictures of the Vic show right-handed Z-twist ropes as breech lines, those were changes against left handed S-shapes in the 2000ies. - Also a preventer breeching line was introduced in those days for 36 an 24 pounders - still would be very thankful for hints about those ones, Goodwin sounds quite confident about them as much as he is about the lay.

 

 

Also for the same reason, about that time, the messenger was exchanged from a cable to a left hand rope, possibly because of the tight diameter of the capstan (a cable is much more sturdy) ...

 

 

... and also the lay still has now the same direction as the anchor cable, thus facilitating the nipping.

 

 

Small notice: modern cable cars have their steel cables also done as a special left handed ropes to ease the wear by going around the wheels in the valley and on the top side.

 

 

Hope this helps, Daniel

Edited March 18, 2015 by dafi

[jbshan]

Deleted by author.

Edited April 11, 2015 by jbshan

[popeye2sea]

I stand corrected.  Just goes to show that you can never do enough research.

 

Regards,

[jbshan]

Dafi's photos are excellent, especially the bottom one.

Edited April 11, 2015 by jbshan

[Izzy Madd]

How many yarns would be used to make each strand of a rope?

 

Is there a limit or is it just dependant on what size rope you want?

 

Only I've seen years ago. People making rope in a traditional ropewalk. Walking back and forth dozens of times but there are still only three strands. Obviously there has to be an equal number per strand. But if you can make ropes upto 9" thick then why are they mostly three stranded when the twisters are capable of doing at least six strands. And when would you make a rope out of more than three? Or is it just that its smoother and perhaps stronger because of the reduction in angle of lay?

[lehmann]

Only I've seen years ago. People making rope in a traditional ropewalk. Walking back and forth dozens of times but there are still only three strands. Obviously there has to be an equal number per strand. But if you can make ropes upto 9" thick then why are they mostly three stranded when the twisters are capable of doing at least six strands. And when would you make a rope out of more than three? Or is it just that its smoother and perhaps stronger because of the reduction in angle of lay?

 

You may want to recheck the reference to 9".  I suspect it refers to circumference, not diameter (because it's easier to measure).  Also, from what I've read, when converting from circumference to diameter, the practice was to just divide by 3, not 3.1416.

 

Bruce

Edited March 21, 2015 by lehmann

[Izzy Madd]

You may want to recheck the reference to 9".  I suspect it refers to circumference, not diameter (because it's easier to measure).  Also, from what I've read, when converting from circumference to diameter, the practice was to just divide by 3, not 3.1416.

 

Bruce

Hi,

 

You may well be right about circumference rather than diameter the exact measurements were not stated. But I've seen rope personally well over 18" in diameter at Liverpool dock museum. And yes it was a rope not cable although it did have six not three strands. As for the conversion 2πr or 2x3.14xradius is the accurate measure but yes a third of the circumference is usually close enough especially with things like natural rope which will swell and shrink.

[jud]

Probably had a substanttual core. Don't know how you handle such a rope, wet or dry. Where are the bits to take it, some of the larger bolards might handle it if you could get the line to and over it. An 18" diameter rope, for practial reasons, I would think would be limited to stationary use.

jud

Edited March 21, 2015 by jud

[jbshan]

Deleted by author.

Edited April 11, 2015 by jbshan

[lehmann]

 As for the conversion 2πr or 2x3.14xradius is the accurate measure but yes a third of the circumference is usually close enough especially with things like natural rope which will swell and shrink.

 

Other factors:

- they didn't have calculators (maybe slide rules!) and few could even do arithmetic.

- have you ever tried to measure the diameter of a rope, even with calipers?  Circumference is far more reliable and repeatable.

 

Bruce 

[Izzy Madd]

As this has gone totally of track the best way to end this direction and perhaps get bac to the original question is to quote the Guinness book of records

 

"A rope measuring 251 m (823 ft) long, with a diameter of 2.2 m (7 ft 2 in), was made from rice straw and was used for tug of war by citizens of Uiryeonggun, South Korea during the Righteous Army Festival on 22 April 2005. Weighing 54,500 kg (120,150 lb), it is the largest rope made from natural materials."

 

And as for measuring diameters I was able to judge a circle to within 10mm from 100mm up to and beyond 1400mm with out a measure. It's called experience.

 

Measure it how you like I don't care the question was why only three strands, how many yarns, and why not six strands. So either get back to the subject or start your own.

[dafi]

...hihihihihihi...

 

Beckham knows the truth :-)

 

Long_Thick_Rope.jpg

 

But technically possible does not mean it is suitable for handling ...

 

...hihihihihihi...

 

XXXDAn

[Stockholm tar]

Izzy,

 

The number of yarns actually varies according to the size of rope, so I don't think there is a set number, although there probably is for each size of rope. Three stranded, or hawser-laid rope, is the most common although there is also five stranded and I think, seven. Apparently the number of strands is odd-numbered.

 

As said, three strands are the most common in normal rope and it might simply be, that it is both the the easiest to make on a ropewalk, and the easiest to splice.

[Izzy Madd]

Izzy,

 

The number of yarns actually varies according to the size of rope, so I don't think there is a set number, although there probably is for each size of rope. Three stranded, or hawser-laid rope, is the most common although there is also five stranded and I think, seven. Apparently the number of strands is odd-numbered.

 

As said, three strands are the most common in normal rope and it might simply be, that it is both the the easiest to make on a ropewalk, and the easiest to splice.

Now splicing I know and enjoy full sized. And I can confirm three is by far and away simpler. No matter the size of the rope. As the coils almost wrap themselves into position especially when doing an eye splice. One of my favourites as when done right. Unlike modern ropes with metal inserts and clamps. Look beautiful and baffles the hell out of none knot tying people. As they can't figure out where the ends have gone. :-)

[Izzy Madd]

...hihihihihihi...

 

Beckham knows the truth :-)

 

Long_Thick_Rope.jpg

 

But technically possible does not mean it is suitable for handling ...

 

...hihihihihihi...

 

XXXDAn

The question over this 100mm rope is what's being described the rope or beckham...

 

And yes I'm no fan of football

 

And thanks for getting back to the subjects.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Izzy Madd

[Izzy Madd]

Come on lads calm it down a bit,

 

best regards John.

Thanks for the wake up call but it was cheesing me of.

 

As it was my thread and my question which was nothing to do with the way rope is measured.

 

Regards

Edited March 22, 2015 by Izzy Madd

[captain.jerry]

There is one more term that needs to be discussed here.     Right hand vs left hand is clearly understood.  One is the opposite of the other, just like in a screw thread.   Rope or cable can be right laid or left laid and the term describes the direction of the last or outer twist.

 

Regular lay (also called plain lay) vs Lang lay is different.  In regular lay, left hand cable is made of right hand rope and left hand cable is made of right hand rope.  In Lang laid cable the cable is made of ropes of the same twist  so that Right hand Lang laid cable is made of right hand rope, and Left hand Lang laid cable is made of left hand rope.  Lang laid rope is more flexible but at some loss of strength.  It is also more water permeable, leading to increased rot.

 

https://books.google.com/books?id=V_CGAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA397&lpg=PA397&dq=lang+laid+fibre+rope&source=bl&ots=Nst_CFqM7O&sig=9hH8M9IaUPjzIn63v7NghrlLAjM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=YrlSVaetNcGYNo_5gZgG&ved=0CEQQ6AEwBw

[dafi]

This too was described by Nares Seamanship in ca. 1860. Possibly this is the source of the Victory being equipped with the left hand breech ropes.

 

 

Further research did not yet find earlier sources so far. So I personally find it doubtful for the use in 1805 on Victory. Has anybody further hints?

 

XXXDAn

Edited May 19, 2015 by dafi

[captain.jerry]

I beliee that Albert Lang was a German Mining engineer and developed his method of building cable for use in the mining industry in about 1830.  His focus was on wire rope used in mine hoists. I do not know how long it may have taken the method or the term to reach into the fibre or hemp rope industry or if Albert may have adapted a known fibre rope method and passed it on to the wire rope industry. 

 

Jerry