SAINT PHILIPPE 1693 by Heinrich der Seefahrer - Heller - 1:92 - converted from Soleil Royale kit

[Hubac's Historian]

My observation of trends in French naval architecture is that the open, lower stern balcony (middle deck level) is an artifact of the early First Marine.

 

Apparently, their (relatively) fragile construction left them open to damage from a strong following sea.  By the time of the St. Philippe, this stern balcony would merely be a vestigial “false” balcony, projecting only far enough from the face of the stern to serve as a supporting ledge to the corbels that support the open balcony above, on the main deck level.

 

What is interesting to me, on the other hand, is that Mr. Lemineur has chosen to represent the “balcony” of the quarter deck level, also as a vestigial fascia, as opposed to a shortened balcony that does not wrap to the quarters.  The original drawing does suggest as much, but the French loved their balconies, which were also much admired by the English.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

@Hubac's Historian

 

Yes, Marc, that is an interesting point you pointed out! The beloved balconies.

 

When we look onto the eventually original drawing of SAINT PHILIPPE or (more likly) her sister TONNERANT

 

we do find several indices for two balconies and some comletly open galeries on both sides. The picture is an ink and watercolour called "sheer-hulk for the king's vessels at the Rochefort shipyard" (Nat. Archives 6JJ89 item 86). And beside the interstinhg hulk showing the narrow of every balcony or the little distances between transom and parapet to us. So I'll try to orientate my further creation of the transom by this contemporary guidline drawing.

Edited April 18, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
I figured out that only the LD sidegallery had some (false) glas parts.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Hello, 

 

The CWL ist the next source of trouble. The keel of the kit is CWL-parallel - but

he SPs keel rises towards the stem.

 

And when I change the CWL the rest of the hulls planking has to be changed,too. 

 

So the wales have to be relocated aft... so the planking - as it runs parallel to the wales is to be bent, too. I'm so happy I had had decided to do a new planking at all - now I get the first advantage of it.

 

 

 

Happy Easter!

 

PS: here it is more obviously:

Edited April 20, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
P.S. added

[Hubac's Historian]

I may be mis-remembering this, but before I cut away the lower hull - I was trying to mark a new LWL.  I was using a block and a pencil at the new height working aft to forward with the keel down on a flat surface.  That’s when I realized that the kit does reflect a deeper draft at the sternpost than the stem - I forget the discrepancy, but something between 2-4 scale feet.  My solution was simply to measure up from the moulded waterline, 5/16”, taking into account the extreme curvature of the transom; you can’t simply lay the ruler flat against the hull, here, because the measurement will be fore-shortened, and your waterline will drop in an arc, as you begin to round these extreme curves.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Thanks a lot, Marc, I'll try to do the cutting off of the keel tomorrow at the testing parts. As I did get a good knife I can now start with the foam block to cut him in slices and then use it to saw out the bulkheads.

 

If this works I can start it onto the real thing the Heller hull cutting away the keel.

 

 

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

It is fulfilled...

 

There is no way back... now I have

 

I.

to clean the surface and cut the 6mm hardplywoodboard from keel to the LD with its 36-pdr guns. As I am forced to adjust the guns befor starting the 24pdr's MD.

 

II.

I'll have to get some ideas about the gratings down there and how many of it can be seen from above or peeking throug the gunports into the deck.

 

III.

To do this I'll have to scale down the Ancre plans from 1/48 down to 1/92. And I'll have to add some details 1/24, too.

 

IV.

After this I have to add the new keel, stern and stem. The bulkhead'll have to be cut out and I need some inspiration how to camouflage this to people peeking in the hull with a line of sigth rectangular to the grills!

 

V.

All this needs a right sequence of steps to be done in the right order not to forget anything.

 

VI.

The threaded rod and the fixing nuts to fix it have to be inplemented in an secure AND aesthetic way and the scew has to be camouflaged away. This stand can be easily

build in a long and a short way (near stem and stern) - it is a detail from a blacksmith works book - a small takeout from a gritdoor in Prague typical baroque kind of metal work.

 

VII. 

The only thing I have got is the idea for an aesthetic post to place the hole hullmodel onto reacting the fleur-de-lys grit of the UD. The idea of a white topside is changed because of the white unwater part of the hull - so I have to take a darker more structured wood like in my

cigar box side or

more structured topside

to get a good and warm conteast. The grit from the f-d-l will have to be continued around the edge (at the dark line) and being converted to a kind of patterns ranking into to wood at the side but not covering it too deeply.

So let's start - a plenty of work is waiting.

Edited April 21, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
Added picture of cigargox top

[Hubac's Historian]

Well, that looks about right to me, Heinrich.  Although, it looks like you still have a stem remnant that still has to be removed.

 

I sincerely doubt that anything of the lower deck will be visible from above, and very little through the gunports.

 

As to the bulkheads - simply spraying them flat black will deaden any light that gets to them, and render them virtually invisible.

 

I’m excited for this project to take off!

Edited April 21, 2019 by Hubac's Historian

[EJ_L]

I agree that unless you are planning on leaving planking off to reveal the lower decks or installing lighting, it is very difficult to see down through the gratings or in gun ports at that scale. As Marc said, spray them all flat black, and you will be good to go.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

SoSo my question is WHERE to fix the stands columns???

Half the way from the lengths middle of the hull? 

 

The hole hull model will be from the top lights to

 

the bowsprit cut-off 682mm long.

 

When I am going to take the half  of both distances placing the stand (symboled by pices of vaneer) at the outside of the 1/4 length I do get

this.

 

Then I thought about the good old rule of the Golden Section... 

The math is this

And this looks it like with  the distance b

...and distance a

 

What placing do you think is right? 

The long distance looks gravitating, dosen't it?

 

I do ask this aesthetic question now as I have to make the cuts into the middleboard to place the nuts for the working stand and later for the golden baroque stand. 

And my source of the stands idea - 

Here en detailes. 

 

Sorry but my smartphone loads the pictures as it likes to do it!!! 

Edited April 21, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
Sorry

[EJ_L]

I think that the wider spread position in the last picture looks the best both for visual and for stability, which is more important.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

The

 

centerboard is cut out and has to be rest trimmed ad the stem's round.

 

testplacing was successful. Only the stem keen must be cut off without destroying the hull. That is a real callange I think I'll first have to enclose the gap by the parts N° 27 & 28. 

When the structure of the underwaterhull is ready and the enclosung 36pdr guns deck is fixed inside the I do hope that the hull is  realy stabil enough to take the stress and is ready to be sanded and replanked. 

Now I have to decide where to place the cuts for the stand. Due to this I asked for your help and then the foam block has to be cut by this measurements to draw the 1/2-bulkhead, that were added to the centerboard by wooden square cuts. 

 

 

[Hubac's Historian]

I agree with EJ, that wider is definitely better.  I don’t think you can go too far wrong in using the spacing of the stock kit stand.  I think, whatever your spacing between pedestals, that you will want to first design a pleasing forward pedestal at the appropriate location, then you can design the second pedestal so that the waterline is level.

 

I like all of your base ideas.  I think it will look especially sharp to incorporate the frieze grid of fleur-de-lis into the base.

 

As for cutting away the stem, I did glue in the hawser pieces to help stabilize this area before cutting with a hand scroll saw.

 

Is it your plan, after all, to glue solid wood keel, stem and stern post to the bulkhead former?

Edited April 21, 2019 by Hubac's Historian

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

1 hour ago, EJ_L said:

I think that the wider spread position in the last picture looks the best both for visual and for stability, which is more important.

You are right, the position looks stable - and aesthetic. 

So everything has to follow this decision. 

I searched around in Robert Gardener's book for any rules due to the pictured stands of the early frigates - but didn't find anything helpful with out - "There doesn't seem to be any rule."

 

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

 

32 minutes ago, Hubac's Historian said:

I agree with EJ, that wider is definitely better.  I don’t think you can go too far wrong in using the spacing of the stock kit stand.  I think, whatever your spacing between pedestals, that you will want to first design a pleasing forward pedestal at the appropriate location, then you can design the second pedestal so that the waterline is level.

 

I like all of your base ideas.  I think it will look especially sharp to incorporate the frieze grid of fleur-de-lis into the base.

 

As for cutting away the stem, I did glue in the hawser pieces to help stabilize this area before cutting with a hand scroll saw.

 

Is it your plan, after all, to glue solid wood keel, stem and stern post to the bulkhead former?

Thanks a lot, Marc, for the trick with these hawser pieces. As they are

wrong - right is the rigth side! 

 

they do give stability for the trimming job.

 

I'm not really sure how to build the keel stem and stern from wood or plastic sheet as I would only have to engrave the

complex parts onto it. 

 

As the rest of the galeon will be a really heavy amount of work...

and I get the feeling to come closer and closer to the point where the time safing aspect of the "abuse" of the kit for bashing it starts crossing the graph of a scratch-built-build.

What gets completely clear when you look on the triangular part covering the stem, hull and the begin of the galeon - that will be a tricky pice of work.

 

But to answer your question honesty:

So I do think of a mixture wood for the keel and stern as it is cheaper in the needed long pieces than plastic and plastic for the stem and galion as it is easier to work on by engraving. 

 

KEEP CALM

AND

BUILD MODELSHIPS

 

Edited April 21, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
Added answer

[Hubac's Historian]

I work with a variety of thicknesses of plastic sheet, and laminate, whenever necessary, for thicker scantlings.  After “dressing” edges with a sandpaper block, or emory board, the laminations can’t be distinguished - definitely not under the paint, anyway.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Thanks Marc, this is very helpful! That will safe a plenty of money.

 

The shipcat is still on work on easter monday.

The foamblock is cut on the UD - level and into bulkheads. Now they are ready to be cut into

1/2-bulkheads so I can use them as pattern. To redraw the outline and cut the paper is easier than cutting the foambock itself in a precious half.

 

The work on the hull is going on from the lowest gundecks level, too. I think Marc

@Hubac's Historian  and @EJ_L

are right - there is not a plenty to see in the darkness of the lowest deck - but then more and more light will come through the grits in the 24-pdr deck.

 

Now I am going to cut a

out the h

1/2bulkheads and then I'll look at 

 how Betadave made the joining from wood to plastic exactly.

 

(For the next big step I have to find some solution for the decks planking, better carriages training myself for the 12-pdr deck, the 36-pounder barrels have to be made and detailed. "Music of the future" as wie call it in Germany.)

 

 

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Little steps foreward -

not really to be called "progress"...

...butthbutthe light grey makes it easier to see the differences and work may get more precise.

 

All in all no great deal today - but plank to plank a ship is build.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Our most beloved part of the hobby:

 

sanding the hull...

 

I'll have to fill the gap between middleboard and hull...

The connection between plastic hull and plywooden centerboard will be additivly done by some larger Evergreen L-porfils that take some of the stress of the wight.

I'm absutly umhappy with these stem base but I have to sand it this week and then the plastic stem will be rested on some nails driven carefully in predrilled holes.

 

And it is a large hull of 572mm without UDs hanging over measurement.

 

I'm not clear how to build the upperdecks hull sides?

 

They are very different from the kits given parts. Glueing them on now or desperately adding them separately?

 

Best will be to ask the " good ghost of the bottle"

@Hubac's Historian Hy Marc, what did you install to give more strength to the flimsy lightblue upperdeck sides so you could work with them?  

 

 

As far as I understood

you did all the

UD carftmans work before 

adding onto the hull?

[Hubac's Historian]

Hello Heinrich,

 

She is looking good!! A curiosity - do you have any pictures of the joint between your central bulkhead and the rise of the stern deadwood?

 

As for the upper bulwarks - you will have to, I think, decide whether to cut down the top-most sheer step, in order to conform more closely with the SP’s 3-step sheer.

 

Yes, my M.O. was to add all the detail to the upper bulwarks first.  I will, eventually, return to working on them because I would like to make and attach the quarter gallery amortisement, and the rest of the large figurative sculptures before priming and painting.

 

Only after they are painted will I install them to the hull.  By then, I will have completed construction up to, and including, the main deck.  One advantage of framing and re-constructing the stern is that It is not necessary to clamp the bulwarks in-board, in order to fit within the parameters of the stock stern plate.

 

When I first built this model, years ago, I had to use fishing line, pierced through both sides of the upper bulwarks and concealed by the QGs, to make a twist-caul that brought the upper bulwarks into position; that meant that the whole construction was under tension, and I am frankly amazed that the whole thing has survived all this time, without bursting apart.

 

When the time comes to install the upper bulwarks, I will make styrene bulkhead stanchions that will be concealed by the forecastle deck (and also hidden by the dummy galley stoves), as well as beneath the quarter deck.  These bulkhead stanchions will give me something solid to glue to and will also create support for my dummy deck beams, to which I will glue the styrene upper decking.

 

The exact placement of the stoves is still a little up in the air because I haven’t really focused on it yet.  They will have to be placed so that the chimneys that pierce the forecastle deck don’t interfere with the guns, the cathead timbers, or egress to and from the deck.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

PHy Marc, you asked

for the "rise of the deadwood"

And if you compare the drawing with the Heller hulls rise of the deadwool the

arc of the rise is much higher than

this long run on the kit! 😱With its end at the sixth LD gunport - where as the drawing of SAINT PHILIPPE says: 

"Ending of the deadwood is at gunport N° 3 (three)!"

 

 

 

...as I do hope to understand you question the right way.

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

No... it is really rises from gunport aft side to the stern - the #¢^^ deadwood...

...that lousy trick saves a huge amount of money for the casting moulds inner part forming the inside of the hull...

@Hubac's Historian

Stay happy to build a WLmodel!

Edited April 23, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
@Hubac added

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Now I'm going into my panicroom and immediately after door is locked I'm starting my

privat personal panicing...

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Let us keep calm and transform plastic into wood! 

 

The hole stand straight out of the kits bag.

 

It realy needs an Ivar shelf board of 800x300mm to bear the stand. Asvthere will be two furthermore kits to be bashed it's worth yhe work - I do hope.

 

In the manual there are written 4 screws to be needed to fix the stand - and after 40 + X years Heller wasn't able to lectorate their handout a bit!'

 

But it looks so much after plastic that this stand'll win any

 

ugliest-part-of-any-kit-contest easily!

 

...so I took 2h of time, some 120 and 80 grain sandpaper and a knife to transform the plastic glossy surface into wood. This isn't finished it is just a trial. Due to turn my mind away from the kits troubles.

 

 

 

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

LIDs Ideas for detailing a bit

 

...and as I figured out recently 

a very good trail for the cutting area of the gun port lids, that can be seen. Three to four planks and/or wales and two view-able cuts at every lid makes a huge amount of handcrafted work! I had till now never realised that the lits are really sawn out ot the real plank and wales surface and again reassembled in order to disappear.

 

So every lid will make a real single stand alone kit of a minimum of 50 separated parts to be glued together - mainnumber the fouredged nails on the inside. to make it in a more economicaliy way the lids inside will me made from a single resinpice. But the outside must be from the original material due to continuation of the sanded on grain. 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
Lid detailing idea added

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

This evening I walked to my favorite copyshop and sized the 1/144 bookprints towards 1/92 so the now do fit to the Heller kit. 

 

My very first look was towards the transom-ic source of trouble.

But it looks quite nice -the stern post seems to be in the right high.But the wales need to be lifted - the lower end of the lowe wale of the kits hull has to be moved upwards so it rests at its upper wales upper end .

 

I did this test with the cutted in twice and centerboard slice added transom of the Heller kit.

 

But the breadth of the transom looks right!!! 

 

Edited April 24, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
Transom breadth test added

[Hubac's Historian]

Beware - the height between decks of the Heller kit is absurdly out of proportion; even allowing for the thickness of deck planking (4”) and the height of deck beams above (approx. 10-12”), there would still be almost 7’ of clear headroom, between decks, if the Heller kit were full-size.

 

This is a problem that Cedric, of the La Reyne conversion project first pointed out.  He was/is attempting to correct this flaw, but it requires closing in all of the existing gunports, re-locating the wales, adjusting the sheer of the decks - and even after all of that, you may wind up running into problems with the new positioning of the guns relative to the gradient of the tumblehome.  In the end, it may end up looking more wrong than if you just left the decks and guns where they are.

 

For me these problems - if one felt absolutely compelled to fix them - veer off into the slippery slope of whether you should just go ahead and build the model from scratch, so that everything is as it should be.

 

I suspect that may be the reason that we have not heard from Cedric in such a long time; perhaps the compromises he would have to make with regard to accurate representation, in order to work within certain confines of the kit architecture, sapped his interest in the project.  Hopefully, not; I still think he can make a very good model of La Reyne without going to extreme lengths.

 

It is very easy, IMO, with these conversion projects to become so bogged down with certain corrections that the project becomes Herculean and not fun, anymore.

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Hy Marc, thanks for your kind and frank answer. And that is exactly what I do fear at all: losing the fun as spin of this project and running into the barbed wirded labyrinths of a Sysiphosian work of repairing the new problems caused repaired faults of the kit. 

 

Okay lets summarice:

A.)

So I'll relacate the gunports that were completly out of place - that isn't the work making you get too grumpy from. This as it will happen unter the new planking at all.

 

B.)

Relocating the masts is also a point not to be neglected - I still think about not to install any masts due to the amount of daylight shining through the gratings, staircases and mastholes into the 24pdrs MD lightening some detail. On the other hand the white painted masts do have some nice effect onto the decks appearance at all. And the bowsprit does work together with the flagmast aft. 

 

C.)

Detailling what can really be seen at the very end.

 

D.)

Scratchbuild in a diffident way transom, galion, lids, staircases and gratings to multiplicate the detailing after Art.C.) and try to keep timesafing use of resin in mind.

 

Hope this five articels will be some rough guideline to me.

Edited April 25, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

Instead of buying some extra gap-filling-2-components superextraglue I followed Martys' wounderfull idea:

 

 

 

of using

some drops of superglue and backing powder to fix my gap between Hellers' hull and Heinrichs' bulkheads... but as I have tofill some more gaps I'll try to use some deco sand to get some more stability in there.  

 

My main source of touble will come by the differences between the hardnesses of surfaces the quite soft Heller plastic vs. hardened superglue concrete. 

 

Further progress will be shown as soon as possible! 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer

[CaptainSteve]

On 4/25/2019 at 3:10 PM, Heinrich der Seefahrer said:

B.)

Relocating the masts is also a point not to be neglected - I still think about not to install any masts due to the amount of daylight shining through the gratings, staircases and mastholes into the 24pdrs MD lightening some detail. On the other hand the white painted masts do have some nice effect onto the decks appearance at all. And the bowsprit does work together with the flagmast aft. 

 

Just a thought, Heinrich, but you could do her with mast stubs ... a la the Admiralty models of yore.

 

(Now I'll just return to quietly following and enjoying the amazing research that you, Hubac and EJ_L are doing.) 

[Heinrich der Seefahrer]

@CaptainSteve

I think about it due to the nice white colour at first but also because I would have to do the cut through a hole decks structure. An immense amount of work! 

Thanks for your helpfull support - the idea is right.

Edited April 27, 2019 by Heinrich der Seefahrer
Resizing my bad English