Glory of the Seas 1869 by rwiederrich - FINISHED - 1/96 - medium clipper

[rwiederrich]

Great images for sure.  That first is when she is being fitted out for Salmon factory service.  It gives us a clear view of her naval hood and the bowsprit.  wonderful.

The jib-boom's root is better seen here as well.

 

I'll take some new measurements and try to validate some things...using your figurehead idea.

 

Love it...we are getting much more info for a much better model.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

Playing with the new images...I took some measurements and using the figurehead as the foundation and the height of the copper line I was able to make some changes to my drawing that better mimics the San Pedro image.  As you can see I altered the stem to have more of a parabolic curve...being more vertical exiting the water and then making the curve up and forward to the foot of the figurehead.

The figurehead is a sloppy mess...but is 7.5ft long and the hood's length is 2 and one third the length of the figurehead.  The copper line to the false keel is 22ft.  Scale is 1/8" to 1'------

[ClipperFan]

Rob, in the 1907 pic, if you look closely at the base of Glory's prow where she meets the water, there's a shadow which I believe is the pier behind her. The actual prow of the Ship herself is just slightly inclined in front of that shadow. In addition it looks like the entire waterline of the photo itself has an ever so slight tilt upwards. Laying a compass with true verticle at the base of the image should verify this, if I'm right. 

Meanwhile, Appendix 1 of Mike's 1st book lists Glory's Bowsprit as 24' outboard with 34" diameter. From the latest close up of that section, I count 7 metal hoops around the Bowsprit with 1 additional which encircles both Jibboom and Bowsprit. Assigning 3' distance between each band gives us 21'. That seems to work, since there's a little distance to the Bowsprit Cap and slightly less before this spar enters her Hull. I also noticed that a section of Jibboom narrows just a little as it squares out to meet the Hull too. 

I wouldn't be too concerned about messing up her Figurehead. If you let me, I can help with that. I've been perfecting my obsession with her graceful aspect for years. It's been a pleasant surprise to see that my efforts have gotten pretty close, even without benefit of either 1907 or 1911 images. For instance, seeing how her hand is much higher up by her tied hair bun clears up a problem I've had getting the position of her absent right arm correct. It's quite difficult to make out but her long flowing scarf actually makes a loop behind her body. Another beautiful trait I've noticed in Glory's interface between her Figurehead and carved Cutwater is an impression of a reverse "S" curve. Observe the outline of her Figurehead. She actually stretches out in a very graceful arch which reversely echoes the Cutwater below her. 

To make it easier to see some of these details I darkened the latest image a couple times. Finally, her gown and scarf appear to have had light gold trim, which would highlight the graceful folds better. In the 1911 image, she has dark hair. It makes me wonder if she was painted naturally, similar to the way the Donald McKay and Great Republic's figurehead were.

Edited February 25, 2021 by ClipperFan
Spelling and additional thoughts.

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, in the 1907 pic, if you look closely at the base of Glory's prow where she meets the water, there's a shadow which I believe is the pier behind her. The actual prow of the Ship herself is just slightly inclined in front of that shadow. In addition it looks like the entire waterline of the photo itself has an ever so slight tilt upwards. Laying a compass with true verticle at the base of the image should verify this, if I'm right. 

Meanwhile, Appendix 1 of Mike's 1st book lists Glory's Bowsprit as 24' outboard with 34" diameter. From the latest close up of that section, I count 7 metal hoops around the Bowsprit with 1 additional which encircles both Jibboom and Bowsprit. Assigning 3' distance between each band gives us 21'. That seems to work, since there's a little distance to the Bowsprit Cap and slightly less before this spar enters her Hull. I also noticed that a section of Jibboom narrows just a little as it squares out to meet the Hull too. 

I wouldn't be too concerned about messing up her Figurehead. If you let me, I can help with that. I've been perfecting my obsession with her graceful aspect for years. It's been a pleasant surprise to see that my efforts have gotten pretty close, even without benefit of either 1907 or 1911 images. For instance, seeing how her hand is much higher up by her tied hair bun clears up a problem I've had getting the position of her absent right arm correct. It's quite difficult to make out but her long flowing scarf actually makes a loop behind her body. Another beautiful trait I've noticed in Glory's interface between her Figurehead and carved Cutwater is an impression of a reverse "S" curve. Observe the outline of her Figurehead. She actually stretches out in a very graceful arch which reversely echoes the Cutwater below her. 

To make it easier to see some of these details I darkened the latest image a couple times. Finally, her gown and scarf appear to have had light gold trim, which would highlight the graceful folds better. In the 1911 image, she has dark hair. It makes me wonder if she was painted naturally, similar to the way the Donald McKay and Great Republic's figurehead were.

 

[rwiederrich]

Several interesting notes.  Her inner bobstay mounts to the bowsprit roughly 7.5ft (90")from the head of the figurehead...which happens to be the length of the figurehead.  Also noted is that the distance from the head of the figurehead outward from the vertical from the cutwater(entrance of the hull into the water or copper line) is exactly the same distance as the length of two figureheads or 180".

 

One thing is for sure(and this was true for many clipper builders), they built them utilizing their own measurements.  Meaning the length of a foremast from the prow of the forecastle was the length of the lower foremast, or the width of deck houses was the distance from foremast to mainmast multiplied 4 times.  Lots of unique measurement tricks allowed the shipwrights to keep things simple, yet elegantly balanced.  Rememberable.

[ClipperFan]

4 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Several interesting notes.  Her inner bobstay mounts to the bowsprit roughly 7.5ft (90")from the head of the figurehead...which happens to be the length of the figurehead.  Also noted is that the distance from the head of the figurehead outward from the vertical from the cutwater(entrance of the hull into the water or copper line) is exactly the same distance as the length of two figureheads or 180".

 

One thing is for sure(and this was true for many clipper builders), they built them utilizing their own measurements.  Meaning the length of a foremast from the prow of the forecastle was the length of the lower foremast, or the width of deck houses was the distance from foremast to mainmast multiplied 4 times.  Lots of unique measurement tricks allowed the shipwrights to keep things simple, yet elegantly balanced.  Rememberable.

Rob, that's a good catch to notice the relationship of Glory's Figurehead to Inner Bobstay. That's definitely not a coincidence. Mike confirmed that Truss Bands are 3' apart on Masts and Bowsprits as a Ship Builder's standard practice. As the Inner Bobstay is below band #6, that's about 18 1/2' outboard. Counting back, the tip of her Naval Hoods are right below band #3, 12' from the inner Bobstay. Now we know the head of Glory's Figurehead is about 5 1/2 feet from the tip of the Naval Hood and projects 15' outward from where her Prow meets the water.

Edited February 25, 2021 by ClipperFan
Added info

[rwiederrich]

27 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, Mike confirmed that Truss Bands are 3' apart on Masts and Bowsprits as a standard practice. Inner Bobstay is below band #6, about 18 1/2' outboard. Counting back, the tip of her Naval Hoods are right below band #3 12' from the inner Bobstay. 

Good information.  That 3' band distance is good to know when calculating head gear and hood dimensions.

I emailed Mike about what I've been up to and hope he jumps in here to see.  I didn't post any of my images directly to him via email.

He and Arina check these pages often I think.  I can't post too many images from work to his email.

 

Thanks for all your work and communications with Mike...it helps a lot.

 

Rob

Edited February 25, 2021 by rwiederrich

[rwiederrich]

40 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

her Naval Hoods are right below band #3 12' from the inner Bobstay. 

Rich... that is actually 9' from the inner bobstay eyelet, 12' from the outer.  Those eyelets were probably bolted through the iron bands for strength.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

4 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Several interesting notes.  Her inner bobstay mounts to the bowsprit roughly 7.5ft (90")from the head of the figurehead...which happens to be the length of the figurehead.  Also noted is that the distance from the head of the figurehead outward from the vertical from the cutwater(entrance of the hull into the water or copper line) is exactly the same distance as the length of two figureheads or 180".

 

One thing is for sure(and this was true for many clipper builders), they built them utilizing their own measurements.  Meaning the length of a foremast from the prow of the forecastle was the length of the lower foremast, or the width of deck houses was the distance from foremast to mainmast multiplied 4 times.  Lots of unique measurement tricks allowed the shipwrights to keep things simple, yet elegantly balanced.  Rememberable.

42 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, Mike confirmed that Truss Bands are 3' apart on Masts and Bowsprits as a standard practice. Inner Bobstay is below band #6, about 18 1/2' outboard. Counting back, the tip of her Naval Hoods are right below band #3 12' from the inner Bobstay. 

Rob, I think I follow you on the distance of the center of the Foremast to the Forecastle of the Main Deck being the same as the Height up to her Fore Top. Staghound's Foremast was described as being 50' from the Knightheads. Your description of the Deckhouse width being 4x distance from Fore to Main Mast must have somehow been misstated. Staghound's Main was 67' from her Fore. 4x that would be 268' wide which makes no sense as these vessels were about 40' Beam. You must be referring to some other dimension unless McKay's figured out how to install a "Tardis" on his Clipper Ships!

[rwiederrich]

8 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Appendix 1 of Mike's 1st book lists Glory's Bowsprit as 24'

My calculations place it roughly at 24' as well.  3' before the first band and 3' past the 7th band.  8, 3' spaces equal 24"

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

8 minutes ago, rwiederrich said:

Rich... that is actually 9' from the inner bobstay eyelet, 12' from the outer.  Those eyelets were probably bolted through the iron bands for strength.

 

Rob

Rob, you're right. I multiplied incorrectly. I might have caught it too if I referenced the distance in the photo too. The front of the head on the Figurehead is about Center of the span above between two bands, that's about 18" not over 5'.

[rwiederrich]

8 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

In the 1911 image, she has dark hair. It makes me wonder if she was painted naturally, similar to the way the Donald McKay and Great Republic's figurehead were.

Interesting note to ponder.  It was not uncommon for captains to paint the figurehead prior to entering port.  This detail was left up to the privy of the captain.  I tend to think....from painting evidence and those of first hand recollections, that she was originally all white....similarly like the Cutty Sark.  She too was repainted when she fell to Portuguese ownership as the Ferreira....dark hair and a blue dress.  This might be taken into account... the dark hair and gold trim of her flowing gowns fringe.   Regardless....white paint would have been easiest......though I think I recall reading somewhere, her being repainted with bright red lips and cheeks once.

 

Rob

 

[rwiederrich]

18 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, I think I follow you on the distance of the center of the Foremast to the Forecastle of the Main Deck being the same as the Height up to her Fore Top. Staghound's Foremast was described as being 50' from the Knightheads. Your description of the Deckhouse width being 4x distance from Fore to Main Mast must have somehow been misstated. Staghound's Main was 67' from her Fore. 4x that would be 268' wide which makes no sense as these vessels were about 40' Beam. You must be referring to some other dimension unless McKay's figured out how to install a "Tardis" on his Clipper Ships!

That deck house measurement wasn't for clippers...just an example of how designers used symmetry in constructing their vessels.  I was referencing the WIDTH of the cabin not length.

It was easy to use body parts as measuring tools....and ship parts were utilized in the same way.  Pretty cool huh?

 

Rob

Edited February 25, 2021 by rwiederrich

[ClipperFan]

Hi Rob,

In his latest email to me, Michael specifically asked me to share this information with the group, so I am quoting him exactly:

 

"For your information Ron Haug has been a shipwright since he began his apprenticeship in 1952 when he was 15 years old. We first started corresponding in 1995 when we were trying to determine the accuracy of the purported builder's model of Glory at Mariner's Museum. We concluded that it it is indeed the builder's model, it was changed 'drastically' on the mold loft floor. 

 

He is likewise probably the 'expert' regarding Benj. F Packard. Therefore I trust his opinion. 

 

Please share this information with the group."

 

This is verbatim what Michael Mjelde wrote to me. (If anyone knows how to italicize words, Mike used italics for the vessels "Glory" and "Benj. F Packard." Then it would be precisely how he wrote it).

[ClipperFan]

3 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Interesting note to ponder.  It was not uncommon for captains to paint the figurehead prior to entering port.  This detail was left up to the privy of the captain.  I tend to think....from painting evidence and those of first hand recollections, that she was originally all white....similarly like the Cutty Sark.  She too was repainted when she fell to Portuguese ownership as the Ferreira....dark hair and a blue dress.  This might be taken into account... the dark hair and gold trim of her flowing gowns fringe.   Regardless....white paint would have been easiest......though I think I recall reading somewhere, her being repainted with bright red lips and cheeks once.

 

Rob

 

Rob, In his multiple descriptions of various Packet and Clipper Ships, Duncan McLean, writer for the Boston Daily Atlas described that it was a popular fashion style to monochromatically paint most ship's Figureheads white. I have also read where occasionally there would be gold and sometimes blue trim applied to highlight folds of garments. In the published image of Glory's Figurehead of the children's book there are definitely two very thin parallel lines that grace the bottom of her toga. These lines can be seen all along the many graceful folds which drape behind her right arm. She's also wearing an impressive necklace and two arm bands which also have two complementing thin lines on the ends. However unless there's new information uncovering original paint schemes, this falls in the realm of pure speculation on my part.

[rwiederrich]

This figurehead is from the clipper America.

She was totally white and is now at a resort called Rosario in the PNW.

 

Beautiful

[ClipperFan]

Rob,

Thanks for sharing these beautiful images of the lovely figurehead of the Clipper 'America.' When I see the sole vestiges of USA's once mighty fleet of magnificent Clippers it literally makes me sad. True, most of these impressive "Greyhounds of the Sea" were lost in the depths or burned due to freak accidents but there were a few which survived mainly intact into the 20s and even the 30s. Vessels like "Dashing Wave" the hardy Downeaster "Benj. F Packard" and McKay's last ever Clipper the magnificentn"Glory of the Seas" all gave long lived service, proving the incredible durability of their Builder's craft. Yet where are they today? All gone, except a few surviving Figureheads.... Such a loss to America's Merchant Maritime History.

[rwiederrich]

6 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

Thanks for sharing these beautiful images of the lovely figurehead of the Clipper 'America.' When I see the sole vestiges of USA's once mighty fleet of magnificent Clippers it literally makes me sad. True, most of these impressive "Greyhounds of the Sea" were lost in the depths or burned due to freak accidents but there were a few which survived mainly intact into the 20s and even the 30s. Vessels like "Dashing Wave" the hardy Downeaster "Benj. F Packard" and McKay's last ever Clipper the magnificentn"Glory of the Seas" all gave long lived service, proving the incredible durability of their Builder's craft. Yet where are they today? All gone, except a few surviving Figureheads.... Such a loss to America's Merchant Maritime History.

Yes...and we can thank the American Civil war for that as well.  Hundreds of clippers were taken or burned as victims of war by the South.

Mike tells me that he is getting a grip on his collection and that he will, in some time, be able to track down some more images.  He thinks we are coming along nicely and that the corrections I've made make sense and are bringing us closer to Glory's true design.   I hope to make several small models(Possibly 1:700) of her as she was originally built and as her final configuration....to provide a true comparison of her evolution.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

3 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Yes...and we can thank the American Civil war for that as well.  Hundreds of clippers were taken or burned as victims of war by the South.

Mike tells me that he is getting a grip on his collection and that he will, in some time, be able to track down some more images.  He thinks we are coming along nicely and that the corrections I've made make sense and are bringing us closer to Glory's true design.   I hope to make several small models(Possibly 1:700) of her as she was originally built and as her final configuration....to provide a true comparison of her evolution.

 

Rob

Duncan MacFarlane "CSS Nashville Capturing and Burning 'Harvey Birch' 1864" is probably one of the most famous oil paintings of the horrific destruction of our American Merchantman during the Civil War. To my knowledge the US never did recover the hard earned preeminence they established before that conflagration. Such a loss...

[ClipperFan]

24 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Duncan MacFarlane "CSS Nashville Capturing and Burning 'Harvey Birch' 1864" is probably one of the most famous oil paintings of the horrific destruction of our American Merchantman during the Civil War. To my knowledge the US never did recover the hard earned preeminence they established before that conflagration. Such a loss...

Rob, at 1:700 scale your models would be a little over 4". Probably not big enough to view decent details. A 1:200 scale at 265' comes in at 15.9" which would allow for better observation of Glory's evolution over her long lifetime.

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

Duncan MacFarlane "CSS Nashville Capturing and Burning 'Harvey Birch' 1864" is probably one of the most famous oil paintings of the horrific destruction of our American Merchantman during the Civil War. To my knowledge the US never did recover the hard earned preeminence they established before that conflagration. Such a loss...

Yes...that is a famous painting.  I've read that since the Confederates traded with England....they would capture clippers even in their ports and destroy them.  Not to mention any that tried to make it past their blockade to the south around the horn.   It is a true sadness that the war decimated, not only the clippers but our dominance in world trade.

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, at 1:700 scale your models would be a little over 4". Probably not big enough to view decent details. A 1:200 scale at 265' comes in at 15.9" which would allow for better observation of Glory's evolution over her long lifetime.

I have friends who build in this scale...it actually makes for very fine models.  I was planning on using my vacuum former to make copies from a *Master* model.  In this way I can make several hulls exactly the same and then work the deck as need be.  the models would be small enough to occupy the same base...but show the distinct differences as she evolved.  The entire project would be in of itself one single display by itself.

 

I utilized this method when I was commissioned to build a model of the steam skiff *Puffin* for the Seattle Wooden Boats Maritime Museum.

 

I calculated around 6".....maybe it is 1/600.   1" = 50'    5.3"   I'm a simple man....

 

Rob

Edited February 26, 2021 by rwiederrich

[ClipperFan]

5 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

I have friends who build in this scale...it actually makes for very fine models.  I was planning on using my vacuum former to make copies from a *Master* model.  In this way I can make several hulls exactly the same and then work the deck as need be.  the models would be small enough to occupy the same base...but show the distinct differences as she evolved.  The entire project would be in of itself one single display by itself.

 

I utilized this method when I was commissioned to build a model of the steam skiff *Puffin* for the Seattle Wooden Boats Maritime Museum.

 

I calculated around 6".....maybe it is 1/600.   1" = 50'    5.3"   I'm a simple man....

 

Rob

Rob, I was impressed to read that you did a miniature of the Steam Sloop "Puffin". if there's any pictures, I'd love to see them. By the way, I calculated that if you use 1/16" = 3', it turns out to be 48' per inch which equals exactly 240' at 5" which is the precise dimension of Glory's keel. Her overall length of 265' Taffrail to Knightheads is 5.59". Coincidently the smaller sketch I recently did of Glory is 6 1/8" at her Keel, 6 7/8" Taffrail to Knightheads, just slightly larger than the scale you're looking at.  

Edited February 27, 2021 by ClipperFan
additional measurements added.

[ClipperFan]

2 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, I was impressed to read that you did a miniature of the Steam Sloop "Puffin". if there's any pictures, I'd love to see them. By the way, I calculated that if you use 1/16" = 3', it turns out to be 48' per inch which equals exactly 240' at 5" which is the precise dimension of Glory's keel. Her overall length of 265' Taffrail to Knightheads is 5.59". Coincidently the smaller sketch I recently did of Glory is probably very close to those measurements. 

Rob, I found the full size vessel that you made a miniature of: 1906 Truscott Steam Launch "Puffin" and she's an interesting rarity indeed.

[ClipperFan]

Rob,

Michael Mjelde told me that his Bowsprit reading of 22 degrees 30 seconds was taken from Glory's 1869 fitting out image, not the 1907 one. Using a compass on both the 1907 San Pedro pic and the extreme close up of her Naval Hood from 1911, I get 20 degrees exactly in both images. I'm going to run these figures by Mike to get his response.

[rwiederrich]

3 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob,

Michael Mjelde told me that his Bowsprit reading of 22 degrees 30 seconds was taken from Glory's 1869 fitting out image, not the 1907 one. Using a compass on both the 1907 San Pedro pic and the extreme close up of her Naval Hood from 1911, I get 20 degrees exactly in both images. I'm going to run these figures by Mike to get his response.

Interesting...what are you using for your vertical plumb to establish the 20 degrees?  You could be using the buildings..but that doesn't guarantee the ship is trim in the water.

 

I'm revisiting my original drawings and measurements and I'm finding that through refinements I have come to the determination that her stem is not my original estimation of 7 degrees but  8.5 degrees.   I redrew with better accuracy the keel horizontal...which will induce error in all other measurements.  They too have been corrected now with the new data.

 

I've determined that her inner bobstay plate is the same distance from the original copper line as is the length of her figurehead....90".

Depending on what image you are looking at, her naval hood is roughly twice the length of her figurehead....180".  

 

It appears her copper line had been raised 45" by the time her picture was taken when she was fitting out in 1911 for her Alaska sailing.  This is noted by the over coppering of her outer bobstay plate, which is not how she was originally coppered.

 

I'm having so much fun researching all the changes to the Glory..when they were instituted and the like.  It wasn't till Mike came over that I even learned that Glory had a mod that added 2 backstays to her fore and main masts...that didn't go through the existing channels, but were simply bolted to her side like a British clipper....Fun info.  Here is a new image with some new lines on it.

 

Keep up the good work.

Edited February 27, 2021 by rwiederrich

[rwiederrich]

One last note of importance....I was able to determine from the amidships waterline that the bowsprit's angle is 23 degrees.  Nearly the 22.5 degrees what Mike claims.  We can't be that far off...really!

 

Rob 

Edited February 27, 2021 by rwiederrich

[rwiederrich]

I forgot to post an image of this wonderful book I have...about figureheads.  You might want to get a copy for your own library.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

4 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

One last note of importance....I was able to determine from the amidships waterline that the bowsprit's angle is 23 degrees.  Nearly the 22.5 degrees what Mike claims.  We can't be that far off...really!

 

Rob 

Rob, if the correct angle is 22.5. 23 or 20 degrees doesn't matter to me. I just want to be sure we're accurate. You bring up a good point though, about being unable to determine the vessel's orientation to the building in the 1911 shot. I didn't take that into consideration. To place the compass on the 1907 shot, I measured the exact distance from 3 reference points on the compass from the bottom of the page and figured that gave me a 90 degree angle. If that approach is flawed, can you measure the angle you get from the 1907 close up? 

Also, I admit to being confused about the site line you used for the midshipmen reading which isn't parallel with the keel line, it's more of a perspective line. How is that angle determined? 

Michael referred me back to Glory's 1869 fitting out photo at McKay's yard as a reference for her Bowsprit steeve. I still think that's a tough one. That viewpoint is much closer to the Stern than the Bow and that alone shifts the angles of everything.

[ClipperFan]

4 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

I forgot to post an image of this wonderful book I have...about figureheads.  You might want to get a copy for your own library.

 

Rob

Rob, thanks for the great tip! You would think by now our good friends at Abe Books would be sending us some great discounts!