Looking for Detailed Drawings of Deck Equipment 1930's 1940's

[Hank]

I am looking for any detailed drawings (scaled plans w/dimensions, etc.) for deck handling equipment used on U.S. Navy Fleet Oilers (Cimarron/Ashtabula Class) during the late 1930s - 1940s. Specifically T-3 Tankers. Parts would include:

Deck Winches

Anchor Windless

Stern Windless

Cargo Winches

Fairleads

Any other misc. fittings (pulleys/blocks/etc.)

 

Thanks,

Hank

[Bob Cleek]

You might want to begin searching for what you are looking for here:  https://maritime.org/doc/#nstm (This is should be a bookmarked "favorite" for any ship modeler. It's an amazing resource.) There's copies of the declassified Navy Technical Manuals for everything under the sun, including deck winches and other gear, all available on line. These generally have drawings and specifications. A quick look at maritime.org/doc/#nstm yielded what might be a good start: the Booklet of General Plans for a Cimarron Class T3 Fleet Oiler: https://maritime.org/doc/plans/ao106.pdf It's everything you'd need to build a model. (These are high-pixel PDFs than can be enlarged without a lot of distortion. Use "Control+your mouse wheel" to enlarge.) If you want detailed drawings of the winches, those are found in the Technical Manuals also on this index site. 

 

Check out the Facebook Group for the USN Underway Replenishment Ships: https://www.facebook.com/groups/269459320336573/  You'll find guys on there that sailed on these ships and would know the type of gear that was on them. There's one guy on that group who was on the USS Cimarron (AO-22) crew that might be a good source to contact: https://www.facebook.com/william.gale.7?comment_id=Y29tbWVudDo2NjkzNDMyNzM2ODE1MDdfNjcwNDI5MjcwMjM5NTc0

 

You may be aware of the original construction plans repository, but in case you aren't:

 

Special Media Archives Services Division, Cartographic and Architectural Branch, RDSC, National Archives and Records Administration, 8601 Adelphi Road, College Park, MD 20740-6001; telephone (301) 837-3200.  Their collection includes the general plans and drawing of most ships stricken from the Naval Vessel Register. Requests should be limited to no more than three ships at any one time.  https://www.history.navy.mil/research/histories/ship-histories/sources-of-ship-plans.html

 

The photographs, drawings, and specifications for what you are looking for should be in the USN Bureau of Ships Archives in the National Archives. Here's the index: https://www.archives.gov/research/guide-fed-records/groups/019.html#19.7  All the pre-war MARAD construction records should be in there.

 

As you probably know, the T-3 class fleet oilers were in service for a very long time, through the Vietnam War era, the last being scrapped around 2010. A lot of them ended up in the MARAD National Defense Reserve Fleet ("Mothball fleets") prior to scrapping. The gear you are looking for was probably stock items used on lots of ships. You might get lucky if you could find somebody at one of the Mothball Fleets that's been around for a while and could provide you with some information on them. Many of those guys are walking naval history books and the Reserve Fleet is being phased out, so they've got a lot of time on their hands these days.

 

 

[Hank]

Bob,

Thanks so much!! I do have the BoGP for the CIMERRON class T3 from Maritime. I am aware of NARA links as you've posted - they are, as are most gov't facilities, shut down now. I have two different sets of T2/T3 plans on order from a couple sources; it's the smaller equipment details that plans rarely highlight that I'm interested in finding. I will, however, check out the Bureau of Ships archives you've provided web address for.

During my two WestPac cruises, both ships I served on were duly refueled by T3's still in service as well as a couple of the newer SACRAMENTO class AOEs. 

 

Thanks again,

 

Hank

[Bob Cleek]

Sounds like you're good to go. I'd guess the deck and anchor winches were "off the shelf" items at the time (which would vary from 1939 through 2000 or so.) It's hard to know what might have been added over the years during refits. If you can access a manual for the correct period, something like "Deck Operations," or "Under Way Replenishment" procedures, you will probably find the instructions for operation and maintenance and repairs for the equipment with drawings and photos. 

 

I feel your pain. I'm having the exact same problem researching the deck equipment arrangement for the Cunard liner RMS Lucania (1893.) There's a builder's model that was (don't know if it still is) on exhibit at the London Science Museum, but I haven't been able to find suitable close-up photos of that. The original plans in the Greenwich NMM are incomplete and in large part unreadable (and these days incredibly expensive.) As would make sense, the naval architects simply drew a square and wrote "winch" next to it, leaving the details to be found in the specifications list. There would be found a brand-name, or a reference to another design. You have to have contemporary close-up photos or really dig deep to find the original equipment specs and drawings.

 

[BANYAN]

Hank, this was very much hit and miss when I was researching but I did have some success in searching on equipment manufacturer sites or their pdf/electronic brochures - need to know the name of the companies that produced them though? n Yopu may have already tried that, but thought I would raise it just in case.

 

Good luck

 

Pat

[Hank]

13 hours ago, Bob Cleek said:

Sounds like you're good to go. I'd guess the deck and anchor winches were "off the shelf" items at the time (which would vary from 1939 through 2000 or so.) It's hard to know what might have been added over the years during refits. If you can access a manual for the correct period, something like "Deck Operations," or "Under Way Replenishment" procedures, you will probably find the instructions for operation and maintenance and repairs for the equipment with drawings and photos. 

 

I feel your pain. I'm having the exact same problem researching the deck equipment arrangement for the Cunard liner RMS Lucania (1893.) There's a builder's model that was (don't know if it still is) on exhibit at the London Science Museum, but I haven't been able to find suitable close-up photos of that. The original plans in the Greenwich NMM are incomplete and in large part unreadable (and these days incredibly expensive.) As would make sense, the naval architects simply drew a square and wrote "winch" next to it, leaving the details to be found in the specifications list. There would be found a brand-name, or a reference to another design. You have to have contemporary close-up photos or really dig deep to find the original equipment specs and drawings.

 

Actually Bob - No! Not good to go. With NARA closed, I'm not sure written requests are even being answered at this point. However, I am checking with one of the regular USN historian/modelers who makes a couple trips a year (Rick E. Davis) who is also a friend, and see what the current situation is there.

 

Re. the Maritime.org documents - most of their manuals are 1990s/2000 vintage which doesn't help at all. The operational manuals don't give either scaled or dimensioned drawings, just diagrams.

 

As for NMM or NSM drawings in the U.K., that (as you've noted) can be a very expensive proposition if you choose to purchase. I'm wondering, however - did LUCANIA have a sister? If so, that might be a fairly accurate alternative.

 

And Yes! most draftsmen show items such as winches/windlasses, etc. as blocks with maybe an extended drum on the plans. Their details are minimal, usually only showing possibly a scaled footprint for its location.

 

Hank

[Hank]

13 hours ago, BANYAN said:

Hank, this was very much hit and miss when I was researching but I did have some success in searching on equipment manufacturer sites or their pdf/electronic brochures - need to know the name of the companies that produced them though? n Yopu may have already tried that, but thought I would raise it just in case.

 

Good luck

 

Pat

Pat,

Thanks! Yes, I would like to find the manufacturer(s) but this also is almost impossible at this point. Sometimes, with that information, a modeler can research a company's historical records for old, out of date product drawings and plans. In really rare cases, a patent drawing assigned to a company can be found with all information needed - but, that's a slim chance at best. This is one of the reasons to possibly visit NARA II in College Park, MD, spend a week or so making lists and copies of every naval shipbuilder's supplier for a given time frame and copies of all equipment drawings if you're able to (or taking a flat bed scanner with you and scan all documents on site, which is allowed).

 

Hank

[Roger Pellett]

There is a company in Superior Wisconsin, Named Superior Ligerwood Corporation that specializes in the manufacture of winches and capstans for the Navy.  From the looks of their buildings they must have made winches for John Paul Jones.  I believe that the winches used for underway refueling were Constant Tension winches, not necessarily off the shelf. “Ligerwood” might be spelled Lidgerwood.

 

The other well known manufacturer of deck winches is Hyde, I think now owned by Bath Iron Works.

 

I don’t know if you have a copy of Grey Steel and Black Oil by Thomas Wildenberg, considered to be the classic account of the development of the  Navy’s tanker fleet.  Unfortunately once you get past the first 50 pages there is not much technical detail useful to modelers.  Lots of discussion of administrative negotiations between the Navy and Maritime Commission.

 

Roger

[Hank]

Roger,

Thanks! That is now Superior Lidgerwood Mundy. I may contact them and see if they might have any detail drawings from back in the 30s/40s that they could provide, etc.

I've read mention of the Grey Steel & Black Oil book, however it being more historical in content, more than likely will not look for a copy at this time. Details/Drawings - that's the pursuit!!!

 

Hank

[Bob Cleek]

6 hours ago, Hank said:

Actually Bob - No! Not good to go. With NARA closed, I'm not sure written requests are even being answered at this point. However, I am checking with one of the regular USN historian/modelers who makes a couple trips a year (Rick E. Davis) who is also a friend, and see what the current situation is there.

 

Re. the Maritime.org documents - most of their manuals are 1990s/2000 vintage which doesn't help at all. The operational manuals don't give either scaled or dimensioned drawings, just diagrams.

 

As for NMM or NSM drawings in the U.K., that (as you've noted) can be a very expensive proposition if you choose to purchase. I'm wondering, however - did LUCANIA have a sister? If so, that might be a fairly accurate alternative.

 

And Yes! most draftsmen show items such as winches/windlasses, etc. as blocks with maybe an extended drum on the plans. Their details are minimal, usually only showing possibly a scaled footprint for its location.

 

Hank

Right! I forgot about the pandemic shut-downs.

 

I know that a lot of the manuals on line are more recent than the time the T-2/T-3 tankers were designed, most being built during the war. I just thought there'd be a chance that the newer manuals would address existing vessels, especially since the class was in service for such an unusually long period of time.

 

I neglected to mention three other possible sources, again if you haven't mined them already, 

 

1.   The Sausalito Historical Society Marinship Exhibit - US Corp of Engineers, Bay Model,  2100 Bridgeway, Sausalito, CA 94965  http://www.sausalitohistoricalsociety.com/marinship

 

The Marinship Shipyard was one of the primary builders of the fleet oil tankers during the War. They have a museum at the former shipyard site with builder's models of the Liberty ships and T-2 tankers built there, as well as a large photo and document archive.

 

2.     The Rosie the Riveter WWII Home Front Historical Park, 1414 Harbour Way South, Suite 3000, Richmond, CA 94804.

 

This is a museum and park run by the NPS on the site of the Kaiser Shipyards in Richmond, CA, which built more ships than any other during the War. They have exhibits of the construction of Liberty Ships and the Victory museum ship, Red Oak Victory. They may have useful photos and archives, but I'm not sure if they built tankers there. This is the yard that set the record for building a Liberty ship in four and a half days. I think it may be a safe bet that the same cargo and anchor windlasses were used on the Victories and the tankers, so the volunteers who work on the Red Oak Victory may be able to provide the data you are looking for.

 

3.  The Mare Island Museum at the Mare Island Historic Park in Vallejo, CA, http://www.mareislandmuseum.org/venues/museum/

 

This is a relatively new, but apparently very active museum on the site of the now-decommissioned Mare Island Naval Shipyard, the oldest on the West Coast. It was the primary West Coast Naval Shipyard during the War and its records are now, I believe, available at the National Archives branch in San Bruno, CA. They surely did a lot of maintenance work on tankers and might be worth a try.

 

Yes, RMS Lucania had an identical sistership, RMS Campania (1892), both being built for simultaneous use in regular transatlantic passenger service. At the time, they were the largest passenger ships afloat with the largest triple-expansion engines ever built. Campania took the Blue Ribband on her second crossing, only to have it taken from her by her sister, Lucania, which for unknown reasons, was always the slightly faster vessel. Lucania and Campania were the first transatlantic steamships built without auxiliary sails, Cunard taking the big leap of faith in  steam propulsion without reliance on sail power redundancy. Lucania was also the first transatlantic vessel to be equipped with the new-fangled Marconi wireless technology. Campania was the first to maintain radio contact with shore throughout the course of an entire crossing. Lucania held the Blue Ribband for five years, a remarkable achievement at the time when the major shipping powers were competing strenuously to produce the fastest liner afloat. She lost it to Kaiser Wilhelm der Grosse of Germany, which was the first liner to be powered by steam turbine engines. From a modeling standpoint, Lucania and her sister are interesting in that they have many somewhat unique details. For example, they were the first to employ electric lighting throughout, but carried dual running lights, one light above the other, one being electrically lit, while the other was lit by an oil lamp. This was required by the regulations because the authorities did not consider electrical lighting to be sufficiently reliable for use as navigational lights at the time she was built. They also were equipped with electrical communications systems from the crows' nest to the bridge and even had a sort of "capsule" affair at the stem into which a crewman could climb and be lowered so that he could advise the bridge with a view of conditions in the "blind spots" on either side beneath the bows during anchoring and mooring operations. I have a personal interest in Lucania because my maternal grandmother emigrated from Ireland to the US on her in 1898.

 

[Roger Pellett]

Hank,

 

The University of Wisconsin has a large collection of stuff pertaining to marititime activities in the Duluth, MN and Superior, WI area.  If Lidgerwood disposed of documents they might have landed there.  Same old story though, Covid19.  When they again become accessible, I have a pile of drawings to donate and would be happy to check for you.  I am acquainted with the curator.

 

Roger

[Hank]

Bob,

I will indeed check out those additional links you've provided; Thanks! I was not aware of them. I'm not positive, but I think the various windlasses/winches that each class of ship carries on board are based on the amount of load (tons) that the particular unit is expected to lift, so they would be rated to carry xx amount of tons load. It's possible that Liberty/Victory ships were similar in windlass size or model, but tankers might be different due to the loaded capacity of the ship when fully laden. In any event, it wouldn't surprise me if there wasn't a table drawn up which (like ballistic tables or Logarithm tables) spelled out what was to be used in a given situation, etc.

 

The photo and story behind it of your relative's "ride" in 1898 is very interesting - I can certainly see why you wish to build a model of that particular ship - the colorized photo is wonderful!!! Ships from that era simply make good models because of all the intricate details they display! You will indeed need detailed drawings of all of her deck levels and equipment. I would think a model of 1:200 scale would be a very nice size (37+/-") (38 7/8" @ 1/192 scale). A 1/144 scale would give you a monster - 4'-3"+!!! I do hope you are able to build one to your satisfaction.

 

Hank

 

 

 

[Hank]

FYI - I checked out the Sausalito Historical Society Marinship Exhibit website - the movie  Tanker (1944) is a must if you're interested in auxiliary ships, etc. It's around 3/4 hour in length, color, and shows from start to finish how these Liberty Ship/Tankers were constructed. I'm going to look at the other references Bob has provided sometime today.

Hank