Frame spacing

[Don Case]

I'm cautiously thinking of scratch building the "Leopard" as I have the book and plans. I've noticed on YouTube builds that on some builds the frames are very close together, it looks like 3 frames are their own width apart and then there is a slightly larger gap and then another set of three. then I've seen some builds where the frames are much further apart. Is there a standard? I seem to remember a site from 20 years ago that explained how the construction was done. Does anyone know if it still exists? Maybe a link? The drawings in Rif's book also show a section of planking just below the gun pots that is joggled(if that's the right term). Am I seeing that right? I have a bunch of Hazel logs that I was going to use for bows. Is Hazel a decent ship building wood? I also have Pacific Dogwood, Pacific Crabapple, Yew, Ocean Spray. Viburnum, Juniper, all air dried. Sorry about all the questions but I am a prolific question asker. Thanks in advance.

[Jaager]

32 minutes ago, Don Case said:

Am I seeing that right? I have a bunch of Hazel logs that I was going to use for bows. Is Hazel a decent ship building wood? I also have Pacific Dogwood, Pacific Crabapple, Yew, Ocean Spray. Viburnum, Juniper, all air dried.

Hazel -- from what I can find from the Wood Database - this looks to be a promising species

Pacific Dogwood - if it is similar to Cornus florida - our state flower - you have something special - great for carvings, delicate or strength wanted deck furniture - blocks, deadeyes - do not waste it on parts like frames, beams, planking - unless your supply of it is large and limitless.

Crab Apple -  most any fruit wood is more than excellent.  I consider Apple to be a king.  It is just difficult for me to source.

Yew  -  They do or did make a vary toxic chemo agent from this - I suggest that getting up close and personal with it is not a good idea

Viburnum  -  not a clue, I would have to see it.  But, I see arrow wood as a characteristic associated with it.  Was it  the Apache who used reeds?  Straight, light weight, and had hollow point characteristics on impact?   If it is pithy I would stay away.  For spars, dowels are subject to problems, I would be cautious with a rod that Nature made, no matter how straight.

Juniper - if it is similar to our Red Cedar - I would not use it.

 

Frame spacing -  there is no simple answer - there are no rules pf the sort that you are seeking.  It pretty much varied from ship to ship. There were fads, even with the RN.  It could be seriously different at 20 year intervals.  The RN was down right peculiar and obsessively detailed in their framing.  But not at all predictable from ship class to ship class in what those details were.

There is another factor in play: POF scratch modelers.  If a model has frames showing, unless it was a classroom engineering model or a tech demo model, there is a good chance that the framing is stylized.  It was probably built to show off the frames.  The actual frames were probably so close together that they would be quite unattractive to display.

 

From your questions, I am guessing that you are just now dipping your toe into all this.

Any sailing warship of the line is difficult slog for the most skilled of us.  HMS Leopard  is not as overwhelming  as Victory or Sovereign, but it is a huge bite. 

In your place, I would begin with something much smaller.  I would do POF, but totally plank the outside and the deck.  I would wait until I had a much deeper understanding of this complex subject and a lot of build experience before attempting to build a model showing the guts of the thing.

 

But to clarify where I am coming from:  I am much attracted to open framing below the wale - My favorite is the stylized 17th century Navy Board.

The framing above the wale is about as interesting to me as 2x4 house framing.  I think it mostly had the same utilitarian function. To me it is pug ugly.  I am also not all that enamored with omitting desk planking either.

[allanyed]

Don,

If you are building as was done in the ship yard, that is, fully framed, the Room and Space for a 50 gun ship of about 1790 was 2' 9-3/8".  The floors were sided 1' 2 1/2", the first futtocks 1' 2", the second futtocks sided 1' 0 1/2", the upper futtocks sided 1' 0".   I not sure for Leopard, but every so many frames there were likely two that would be paired then several in between the pairs would have a space between them.   

 

Then again, if you are building in the admiralty style as seen in many contemporary models, these dimensions may go out the window.  

Allan

Edited January 14, 2021 by allanyed

[Don Case]

2 hours ago, Jaager said:

 

 

From your questions, I am guessing that you are just now dipping your toe into all this.

 

You can see one of my builds on my introductory post. I'm no stranger to POF. It's just the little nuances I'm missing.

[Jaager]

OK, well Allan has given you the initial part of it.

This mostly applies to the RN,  in the period around the time of Leopard. 

For a vessel that has not migrated into the "being popular and translated to derived plans" zone:

The plans for most vessels can be seen on the NMM site. Copies of most of them can be purchased from the site.  It is usually necessary for accuracy to bite the bullet and purchase the lines plan.  The full size rather than a less expensive reduced size costs more money, but saves on frustration and regret.  This is a "if I had it to do over" lesson.

The framing and decks are something that I choose to get by saving the large size JPEG from the site. Close enough is good enough.

In the past, the scantlings were from a copy of Steele,  right now they can be had more easily:

 

SCANTLINGS OF THE ROYAL NAVY 1719-1805
Comparisons of 1719, 1745 Establishments, Ship Builders Repository and Steel?s Elements and Practice
by Allan Yedlinsky  

SeaWatch Books

 

The RN made heavy use of filling frames.  North America and France most often did not use them. There was a lot more timber in both of these regions, so they did not have to cheat.   The RN tended to reduce the sided dimension of frame timbers serially the higher up they were.  North America and France generally did not.  I work from the premise that North America used RN scantlings for the floors and just kept them the same up to the tops - which may have been lighter - I plank over, so I ignore this.  France sometimes used lighter scantlings - their ships did not do much station keeping in dangerous seas for years on end.  It tended to irritate the RN when they captured such a ship and tried to use it.  The French were also less prone to reduce higher timbers or jog them.

 

The room and space - room from Steele - space from the plans.  The distance between the station lines and what the number or letter is, provides this information.  The physics of wood and the forces of the sea tended to keep the scantlings of timbers within a narrow range for the 250-300 year range that most of us are interested in.  The space was fad prone and idiosyncratic.  They were continuously running an experiment - without controls and with no useful way to evaluate the data - so it was all a hunch, a guess, unfounded opinion, "the king likes me more so my ideas count more" sort of thing.  with windshield wiper type results.

[allanyed]

There are drawings available that you will find very helpful as Jaager recommends.  I did some checking on the Portland and  Romney classes and found a "little" error.   Even NMM is not infallible.   https://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/87582.html shows Romney as being launched in 1972 rather than 1762.  If I had known that I would have tried to be there!!  Would have been like having my own Wayback machine!!   There were 11 ships in Portland class by Williams, including Leopard, so there may be useful drawings and information out there at NMM and maybe on the Wikimedia site.

 

Wikimedia has one High Res drawing of Leopard 1790 that you may find interesting.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Category:Ship_plans_of_the_Royal_Museums_Greenwich&filefrom=ISTER+1813+RMG+J5758.jpg#/media/File:LEOPARD_1790_RMG_J7335.png 

 

Allan