Questions about spritsail

[Guga]

Hi 

I saw on many ships spritsail on bowsprit , but I don't understand how did they open that sail they are usually above martingale and bobstay. I saw on Wikipedia that spritsails are not so common they kick them out because jibs, it Is logical because if you put martingales and bobstay they could not be there, and especially sail couldn't be open. 

Can somebody explain it to me like I said if you look at many models they have spritsail and below martingales  no way you could open that sail only in almost horizontal position

Edited April 3, 2021 by Guga

[popeye2sea]

I think the excerpt you included pretty much explains it.

 

For a square rigged ship it is advantageous to have sails right forward to balance out the force exerted by the after sails. Prior to the advent of jib sails that function was provided by the spritsail named for the spar it is mounted to; the bow sprit. Being so far forward it did not have to be very large. As ships get bigger the need arises to have more sail area forward, so an additional sail, the sprit sail topsail is added. The problem with the sprit sail topsail is that it is very small, difficult to trim properly, and can only be used for very limited points of sail.  Someone came up with the brilliant idea of replacing the sprit sail and its topsail with jib sails in order to increase the sail area forward. For a short period of time both were used. As the sail area increased so too the length of the bow sprit with its extensions the jib boom and flying jib boom. This creates another problem. All that increased sail area increases the upward force exerted on the sprit and jib. All of the jib stays, shrouds, and backstays are now necessary to hold the jib down and the sprit sail and sprit sail top sail are no longer able to be used, or are even necessary, with the sprit sail yard now functioning as a spreader for the jib shrouds.

 

Regards,

Edited April 4, 2021 by popeye2sea

[Guga]

Thanks well explained I was confused because watching it didn't make sense to have sprit sail. 

But when I look at many models they have full rigged spritsail on bows but is obviously you can open that sail because all the lines underneath it

[amateur]

As Henry said: as long as spritsails were set, there were essentially no lines under the bowsprit, apart from the ones necessary to set the spritsail.

Any other lines, as bobstays, were behind the spritsail, so no problem.

 

I object to Henry when he sais that the spritsail and the topsail are always small: in the late 17th century they tended to be quitelarge, almost as large as the main and top on the fore mast.

 

Jan

Edited April 4, 2021 by amateur

[AON]

When making my spritsail and spritsail topsail yards I was wondering somewhat the same thing.

 

I discovered these sails were mainly used when running (wind from behind), and their existence depended on the era.

My build straddled the time period of having a spritsail topsail and not having it.

 

At first I couldn't see the use of my spritsail topsail as the spritsail would surely have stolen all the wind from it... but then when I did a mock up I realized the angle of the bowsprit allowed the spritsail topsail to be set just above the spritsail so it would catch a breeze.

 

The martingale, dolphin striker, and bobstay was a concern for me... but when my build was first commissioned there was no dolphin striker.  Then I could imagine the spritsail topsail being slipped in just above all this for a period, until they realized it just wasn't worth the effort.

 

Progress seems to move slowly sometimes.

[popeye2sea]

Jan,

 I don't think that is correct.  The size of the spritsail is about the same as a top gallant sail with the spritsail topsail being somewhat smaller than that.  You can verify this by looking at the sizes of the rigging for those sails.  That is the case even in the photo you posted. In fact, on that model, I think the spritsail is too small and the spritsail topsail is cut too long.

 

Respectfully,

[amateur]

Henry is right, I checked the literature.

 the sprittop sail is larger than the fore topgalant, and smaller than the topsail. The 'blinde' was around 1700 afairly wide sail, the length of the yard being three-quarter of that of the main fore. Still, it is a considerable amount of sail.

 

 

Jan

[AON]

All I can wonder is... how do you hide mistakes at that scale?  

[allanyed]

Alan,

You couldn't hide them so let the builder beware, do it right.   😀     Of course, the average viewer would not know a mistake except maybe for something glaring like a broken line or something similar.  The members here are another story and would likely spot errors as long as the name, year, and  nationality are known.   

Jan, do you have the name and era of that model?

 

 

Edited April 4, 2021 by allanyed

[amateur]

It is the William Rex, a model build iin 1698, on the Admirality wharf of Flushing, build for the Admirality as a ‘showoff’ model for their headquarters. Build and rigged by the contemporeous professionals. 
Current location Rijksmuseum Amsterdam

https://www.rijksmuseum.nl/nl/collectie/NG-MC-651

 

Jan

Edited April 5, 2021 by amateur