Cocha / Carrack and if the date 1290 to 1313 would be possible and if the rigging makes sense

[Marvic]

Dear all,

 

I am an entusiast art historian and trying to make sense of the images from a maritime sense. I am trying to identify age and period of the vessel. The painting is being attributed to 14/15 century but for reasons of clothing and surroundings and the potential rigging and rudder position; I am thinking it is of the earlier period 1290 to 1313 and might be one of the initial combination of lateen mizzen and square main sail. The rudder is slowly making it's way to the centre of the vessel from a chronoligical techinical perspective. So this is possibily an archeological evidence of the evolution of technology. I am not a sailing expert with basic sailing skills, but from asking around from others it is interesting as the rigging is fairly clear and it is being steered out of harbour by handling the rigging. The rudder seems to be not centred but situated to the star board (steering side) it is to far to starboard to be a mistake. I have also now hypottecially attributed the full story to the 1282 period (not yet published) thus by the time the painting was commisioned it would have been 1290 to early 1300s. The dark ship wreck part on the right, seems to have a side rudder on port side and suggesting again the age.

 

I have just retired and after a long period of study I am hoping to publish. If I do your comments with your permisson would be attributed to you in the discussion and might decide and be encouraged to build a model which I have never done from scratch. I have not added the full work of art here, for the reader to focus on the maritime section, but for those that will send comments and suggestions I will forward the full work of art always with the intention of not publishing the painting till permission is granted. I look forward to your input, suggestions and comments. Please at present I have permission to use images for research so please avoid publication other that on here or to investigate further with colleagues. Questions are welcome. I appreciate anyone that contributes and all ideas are welcome. Have fun  Thank you

Edited May 5, 2023 by Marvic
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[Mark P]

Good Evening Marvic;

 

I am not an expert in this particular period, but I would say that the illustrations are much later than the early 1300s. The vessel shown on the right has multiple masts, and her superstructures would appear to place her in the mid 1400s at the earliest. The left-hand vessel has two masts. Multiple masts were something which happened over a relatively short period, with the transition from single masted vessels to two or more masts occurring within about 50 years, if my memory serves me at all reliably. If your interest is serious, and it seems to be, I would suggest the following two courses of action:

 

1: contact another member of this website, Stephen, from Australia, who has a deep knowledge of this period, and posts on here under the name of 'Louie da Fly'. 

 

2: try to obtain a copy of the book 'The Good Ship', by Ian Friel. This covers the development of ships in this period in much detail, with in-depth discussion of the various stages of mast numbers, and fore and after castles.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

[mtaylor]

I'm hoping Steven @Louie da fly  does pop in here also.

[Louie da fly]

Hi Marvic, and welcome. 

 

My immediate observation is that the guy on the left, though he's in pseudo-classical armour, is wearing a bascinet on his head, which dates to the 14th century. Towards the end of the century the point at the top of the bascinet moved further and further back, so from the bascinet only, I'd guess this is maybe middle-late 14th century or possibly early 15th.

 

                                    

Bascinet in the Deutsches Historische Museum                       Bascinet with visor, dated 1390-1400 in the Philadelphia

Berlin, dated to 1360-1370                                                       Museum of Art. This is a fairly extreme example of the "back point"

                                                                                                  They weren't all so pointy or so far back.

 

However, the fact of having a lateen mizzen suggests a somewhat later date. The earliest pictures I know of that show vessels with a square main and lateen mizzen are early 15th century.

 

This is a pair of pew-ends from the Church of St Nicholas, King's Lynn, UK (now in the Victoria and Albert Museum, London), dating to 1419

 

Note it has a square mainsail and a lateen mizzen, and also a bowsprit. It also has a rectangular forecastle, something that disappeared in the 15th century to replaced by a triangular forecastle as ships grew larger (as it would make the ship unwieldy in a heavy sea).

 

Unlike the Atlantic, in the Mediterranean there was a tradition of multi-masted ships, but they were all lateen rigged until the advent in the mid-late 14th century of the single-masted square rigged Atlantic cog or kogge, which seems to have been copied in the Mediterranean and give its name to the cocca.

 

The earliest Mediterranean ship I'm aware of with a combination of square mainsail and lateen mizzen is this one of 1425 by Gentile Fabriano of St Nicholas saving a ship from a storm

This one has a tiny lateen, a big mainsail and a bowsprit, and the forecastle is polygonal, tapering toward the bow, presumably to overcome the problem I mentioned above.

 

Another point with your painting is that the mainmast is built up from more than one piece of wood, with rings called wooldings around it to keep it together. This is very characteristic of the 15th century. By the way, to my eye the rudder appears central, rather than to one side. It's a bit hard to make out in the painting, but that's how it seems to me. And the rudder has a horizontal tiller which appears to go through an opening in the back of the hull - as in the painting directly above  (though nobody seems to be steering!). The stern rudder seems to have come in around the middle of the 14th century and was common among cogs and of course carracks.

 

So, my guess is that the painting is early 15th century. The lack of a main topmast would put it before the end of the 15th century, as they started coming in about 1480 or so, but anyway, the other characteristics make me feel it's in the first few decades.

 

I've made a collection of early 15th century depictions of ships which may also be of assistance - see https://www.pinterest.com.au/lowe1847/early-15th-century-ships/

 

I hope this helpful to you.

 

Best wishes,

 

Steven Lowe

 

PS: I also have a collection of pictures of carracks arranged in date order. If you'd like them for reference, send me a personal message with your email address and  I'll send them to you 

 

Edited May 6, 2023 by Louie da fly

[Tony Hunt]

It might be possible to get a more comprehensive response than that one, Steven, but I'd be surprised if it happens!  Awesome work.

[Marvic]

Dear Steven, Louie da fly and Mark,

 

thank you for the very detailed feedback and reading material I will be reading and which is really a very interesting learning curve and appreciated. The questions I might still have is with the potential rudder or other that could be as something else due to the far starboard position. An other interesting part as a novice is the rigging and the captain in red seems to be steering by the mizzen lateen. I have attached the remainder of the painting to be fair and provide a whole picture. My pictures are a little out dated as the paintings date has now been revised to 1380 and 15th Century. While I agree with the reasoning I am still leaving the potential that this work could be evidence in the transition change of technology and early evidence in the case as the bascinet development, two masts lateen and square main and clothing and therefore even earlier than 1380. You guys are champions and knowledge is greatly appreciated. I will keep you updated as soon as I am ready to do whatever with

 

thank you 

 

Marvic

Edited May 13, 2023 by Marvic