Were there any swivel guns on first class ships?

[cbill]

Hello everyone,

Forgive me if this question has already been answered or doesn't make sense to you, but I'm relatively new to historical ship modeling. My research was inconclusive, I didn't find a clear answer, that's why I'm asking you, there are so many experts among you, it's incredible.

 

I have noticed that small ships like sloops and frigates are often armed with swivel guns and I have rarely seen this type of armament on larger ships like first classes.

 

So, did they have any? If not, why not? It seems to me that for close combat, they would have the same usefulness as on small ships?

 

Thanks in advance

[Morgan]

Hi cbill,

 

In answer to your question, certainly as late as the Napoleonic wars First Rates carried swivel guns.  There is strictly contemporary evidence of Victory having 3 swivel guns mounted on a rail at the break of the Poop Deck at Trafalgar, as evidenced by a watercolour made by JMW Turner in December 1805 (see below).  This was somewhat unusual as they were normally mounted in the fighting tops, but Nelson did not like small arms fire in close proximity to the sails.  In this instance it had been shot away during the battle but was subsequently reinstated at Gibraltar during temporary refitting.

 

Although not First Rates there is also evidence of swivels at this time being mounted on capstans for example, so it seems almost any convenient place.

 

Please do take the time out to introduce yourself in the ‘New Member Introductions’ section, and welcome to MSW.

 

Gary

 

 

[allanyed]

15 hours ago, cbill said:

I have noticed that small ships like sloops and frigates are often armed with swivel guns and I have rarely seen this type of armament on larger ships like first classes.

Hi Bill

What year and nation are the first rate ships you are referencing?  This is important as, for example, the Spanish were using swivel guns in the 17th century but the RN did not begin production until about 1721 with 1/2 pounders so early British first rates would have none.  Caruana in The History of English Sea Ordnance, Volume II goes into some detail on swivel guns but does not specify the number of them on any given rating. 

 

This is just nomenclature, but just as an FYI, there were classes and groups of ships but this generally referred to a specific or general design such as the Artois (38) class.  Rates referred to the number of guns and this varied a little over the years as well as from country to country.  

 

Allan

[Lieste]

There were slings on C16th ships, making up a significant portion of the headline gun numbers - fitted to the gun wale.
The new 1721 brass swivel may be the first of its exact kind, but it is far from the first swivel/antipersonnel gun - and many of the early ones would use a preloaded chamber rather than the later cartridge muzzle loaded types.

[cbill]

20 hours ago, Morgan said:

In answer to your question, certainly as late as the Napoleonic wars First Rates carried swivel guns.  There is strictly contemporary evidence of Victory having 3 swivel guns mounted on a rail at the break of the Poop Deck at Trafalgar, as evidenced by a watercolour made by JMW Turner in December 1805 (see below).  This was somewhat unusual as they were normally mounted in the fighting tops, but Nelson did not like small arms fire in close proximity to the sails.  In this instance it had been shot away during the battle but was subsequently reinstated at Gibraltar during temporary refitting.

Thank you Gary for your response and the very interesting photo. It seems that they are not often represented on first rate ship models.

 

6 hours ago, allanyed said:

What year and nation are the first rate ships you are referencing?  This is important as, for example, the Spanish were using swivel guns in the 17th century but the RN did not begin production until about 1721 with 1/2 pounders so early British first rates would have none.  Caruana in The History of English Sea Ordnance, Volume II goes into some detail on swivel guns but does not specify the number of them on any given rating.

Hi Allan, I don't have a specific ship or time period in mind. I am fascinated by this type of ship of all class, but I had noticed the presence of swivel guns only on small ships. I found it strange and wondered why it was like that. I was wondering if it was just the modellers' choice not to show them or if they just didn't have any for those class.

 

Thank you Guys

[allanyed]

5 hours ago, Lieste said:

There were slings on C16th ships, making up a significant portion of the headline gun numbers - fitted to the gun wale.

Thanks Lieste, I was giving the information from Andriana Caruana's second volume ( 1715-1815) regarding English ships and I misremembered the word highlighted below.  I just rechecked and confirmed my memory did not serve me well, my apologies.

 

During the War of the Spanish Succession which lasted from 1702 to 171, there were some spectacular English successes such as the capture of Gibraltar.  The Spanish had known liking for swivel guns, and the capture of a place of such importance as Gibraltar would have included the capture of an arsenal; it is suggested that this is how the swivel gun RE-appeared  <not appeared> in the Royal Navy. 

 

I do not have Volume I of the Caruana set so hopefully some member that has it can lend more to this discussion.

 

Thanks for the correction, very much appreciated.

 

Allan

 

 

[Lieste]

3 hours ago, cbill said:

Thank you Gary for your response and the very interesting photo. It seems that they are not often represented on first rate ship models.

 

Hi Allan, I don't have a specific ship or time period in mind. I am fascinated by this type of ship of all class, but I had noticed the presence of swivel guns only on small ships. I found it strange and wondered why it was like that. I was wondering if it was just the modellers' choice not to show them or if they just didn't have any for those class.

 

Thank you Guys

Swivels tended to see use at least as boat guns through the whole of the latter part of the age of sail, alongside the smaller carronades after their introduction, which mostly displaced small carriage guns, or amusettes on field carriages, usually with a larger ordnance in the bow, and pairs of swivels on the bulwark. Not all boats were armed, and the smallest tended only to receive swivels. When not in embarcation, the swivels were provided for the waist gangways, the poop, the marine walk and/or the fighting tops (though some captains preferred a quiet poop, and disliked firearms in the rigging because of a perceived fire risk (Nelson for both counts as an example)..

Later carronades were in their turn displaced by light howitzers or obusiers on field carriage to support the landing operation from the shore, with the large but light carriage being easily manhandled or carried by a few sailors or marines once ashore.