Staghound 1850 by rwiederrich - 1/96 - Extreme Clipper

[MrBlueJacket]

Speaking of trying.....

 

"Excellence is not a skill, it is an attitude" (unknown)

 

"The wastebasket is your best tool" (Steve Wheeler)

 

Nic

[rwiederrich]

Further observation....concludes that it is true Duncan McLean of the Boston Atlas, did indeed say that Flying Fish did have double topsail ties.  But I argue...not in the manner model designers have drawn.  Their design causes the tie's to run free within 3 gin blocks.  Meaning one side could be purchased in greater effect...resulting in the chain passing freely through all gin blocks.  Making any parral lift cable bolted to the tie inoperable.  For it would pull up against the cable or bind at one or both of the purchases.  The arrangement drawn here is not compatible for top sail yard parral lifts.  And if you can't lift the parral along with the yard...you will bind the parral on the mast.  See first image.    I propose that each tie coming down from each gin block under the top tree...attach to the iron band instead of on center of an iron bar.  This would also eliminate extra hardware like the bar and gin block that would impede full upward travel along the mast.  You would still have port and starboard purchases that terminate at the channel and pin rail

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[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, MrBlueJacket said:

Speaking of trying.....

 

"Excellence is not a skill, it is an attitude" (unknown)

 

"The wastebasket is your best tool" (Steve Wheeler)

 

Nic

Trying can only have two results.  You either, tried and failed, where trying is your excuse, or you tried, till unacceptable failure was replaced by success.

 

Rob

[BANYAN]

20 hours ago, Kenchington said:

Sorry, Banyan but, as @ClipperFan has documented, clipper ships were initially a North American development, as were the (Baltimore) clippers which preceded them.

Suitably educated  

 

cheers

 

Pat

[BANYAN]

Hi Rob, the middle illustration illustration (97) and the last picture in the same post ere of great interest to me as I believe they show the way Victoria was rigged (using gins).  I also agree it is more likely the slings attached to the centre band of the yard (I believe that is the way Nares describes it from recall).  

 

Could you please let me know the reference from which these were taken?

 

cheers

 

Pat

[rwiederrich]

11 hours ago, BANYAN said:

Hi Rob, the middle illustration illustration (97) and the last picture in the same post ere of great interest to me as I believe they show the way Victoria was rigged (using gins).  I also agree it is more likely the slings attached to the centre band of the yard (I believe that is the way Nares describes it from recall).  

 

Could you please let me know the reference from which these were taken?

 

cheers

 

Pat

Pat...I believe I got illustration 97 from an online reference for the model plans for the clipper Flying Fish.  The last is of the Barque James Craig.

[ClipperFan]

10 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Pat...I believe I got illustration 97 from an online reference for the model plans for the clipper Flying Fish.  The last is of the Barque James Craig.

Rob, I noticed that lower and upper topsail yards on Barque James Baines have an octagonal center just afore her fore and main masts. Something I haven't seen on wooden masts before.

[rwiederrich]

58 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, I noticed that lower and upper topsail yards on Barque James Baines have an octagonal center just afore her fore and main masts. Something I haven't seen on wooden masts before.

Possibly to retain the banding from possible rotation on the yard.   I’ve seen this octagon centers on other ships before.   
 

James Baines?
 

Rob

Edited September 17 by rwiederrich

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

Possibly to retain the banding from possible rotation on the yard.   I’ve seen this octagon centers on other ships before.   
 

James Baines?
 

Rob

Rob, D'oh! I meant James Craig and in a rush, since I was distracted picking up my wife from work, typed the wrong ship....

[BANYAN]

'Pat...I believe I got illustration 97 from an online reference for the model plans for the clipper Flying Fish.  The last is of the Barque James Craig.'

Thanks Rob, I'll have a search for that online set of plans (Flying Fish).  James Craig - just up the road from me  There are a lot of online photos for her, so may prove a useful ship for further investigation (re rigging).

 

cheers

 

Pat

[ClipperFan]

10 hours ago, BANYAN said:

'Pat...I believe I got illustration 97 from an online reference for the model plans for the clipper Flying Fish.  The last is of the Barque James Craig.'

Thanks Rob, I'll have a search for that online set of plans (Flying Fish).  James Craig - just up the road from me  There are a lot of online photos for her, so may prove a useful ship for further investigation (re rigging).

 

cheers

 

Pat

@BANYAN Pat, where I see Rob's 50 years' experience translates to his model building prowess is in how he recreates actual working vessels and not just pretty mantlepiece decorations. We've discovered many incongruities in commercially produced plans. This latest correction by Rob is just one of many. He points out how the metal band supporting a yardarm would bind without a device to prevent it from doing so. Simple, yet overlooked. Another one is the long, wide lubbers hole on solid tops. It makes sense both for ease of rigging and to allow crew better access. Yet commercially produced plans still have tiny square openings. You'll notice too, Stag Hound has her twin navel hoods supporting her leaping dog figurehead and acting as a foundation for her bowsprit-jibboom above. It's been on McKay ships since launch but only recently been rediscovered.

[rwiederrich]

It should be concluded that even though Flying Fish was a product of 4 vessels proceeding Staghound.  It must also be concluded that the heavy single topsail yard required additional lifting mechanisms that were employed on, Flying Fish and described by Duncan McLean, must have been a fixture of Staghound/ Flying Cloud /Staffordshire/North America as well.  However, this fixture as depicted by model manufactures(though looking impressive), will not function if parral lift wires are applied.  Parral lift wires, were just as important as the main tie's were themselves.   The modelers system is drawn to work as a pulley system, using the top 2 gin blocks along with the single yard trussed gin block.  In essence, the yard gin block is simply acting as an insertion point for both tie cables.  Each having their own upper gin blocks and purchases below on deck.

 

Skip the yard gin block....secure the tie cable directly to the yard band...up through the top gin block and down to their appropriate, port/starboard purchase block arrangement on deck.  Doing so, will still satisfy McLean's description of double gin bloacks and provide a workable solution for lifting both yard and parral bands equally.  Avoiding the mast binding that would most likely occur if parral lift wires were not employed.

 

Rob

 

[BANYAN]

13 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Pat, where I see Rob's 50 years' experience translates to his model building prowess is in how he recreates actual working vessels and not just pretty mantlepiece decorations.

Thanks Rich, that is one of the reasons I follow your (combined) efforts here as much of the material is relatable to my research and build also.

 

WRT tops, agree; the contract for Victoria actually specifies the types of tops (skeletal) and that they were filled with gratings 'for the men to stand on'. WRT to the rigging of the yards etc, also agree. I use the book 'seamanship'; by Commander GS Nares RN, published in 1868 as my go to reference.  He provides the closest match to the rigging as listed in Victoria's Rigging Warrant for a Barque. I supplement this as required for the 'schooner' fore-and-aft elements. Nares I believe actually points out that the (chain) tyes are indeed set-up to the centre band of the yard and not the truss arms.  As with the drawing of Flying Fish rigging using gins, this correlates closely with Victoria's rigging also, but this is the first illustration showing it that I have seen.  I had come up with the same arrangement independently as shown below. I was not sure which set-up was more appropriate given the odd description/listing of the associated halliards in the Rigging Warrant. These were only applicable to the topyard as the lower yard, once hoisted, was hung on chain slings.

I chose to go with the centre option as there were two sets of halliards/purchases listed.

Thanks to you all for this interesting log.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[FriedClams]

You've made a lot of progress since the last time I checked in, Rob!  Everything looking fantastic.

 

Gary

[ClipperFan]

18 hours ago, BANYAN said:

Thanks Rich, that is one of the reasons I follow your (combined) efforts here as much of the material is relatable to my research and build also.

 

WRT tops, agree; the contract for Victoria actually specifies the types of tops (skeletal) and that they were filled with gratings 'for the men to stand on'. WRT to the rigging of the yards etc, also agree. I use the book 'seamanship'; by Commander GS Nares RN, published in 1868 as my go to reference.  He provides the closest match to the rigging as listed in Victoria's Rigging Warrant for a Barque. I supplement this as required for the 'schooner' fore-and-aft elements. Nares I believe actually points out that the (chain) tyes are indeed set-up to the centre band of the yard and not the truss arms.  As with the drawing of Flying Fish rigging using gins, this correlates closely with Victoria's rigging also, but this is the first illustration showing it that I have seen.  I had come up with the same arrangement independently as shown below. I was not sure which set-up was more appropriate given the odd description/listing of the associated halliards in the Rigging Warrant. These were only applicable to the topyard as the lower yard, once hoisted, was hung on chain slings.

I chose to go with the centre option as there were two sets of halliards/purchases listed.

Thanks to you all for this interesting log.

 

cheers

 

Pat

@BANYAN Pat, in the late 70s I worked for a while clearing trees for large housing developments. Occasionally we resorted to block & tackle to make sure large trees didn't fall on homes. Being familiar with how lines can bind, I say the left center illustration with dual outside chains is definitely the safer choice. The other one with a centrally mounted hoist chain gets offset to the right. A situation which could easily lead to binding, since the central chain appears to cross over to the other line. and the right side block has to accommodate two chains. The other arrangement is simpler and cleaner with no chance of crossing eachother. Of course, it would still need Rob's wishbone thingy, since I can't remember the proper nautical term.

[BANYAN]

5 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

A situation which could easily lead to binding, since the central chain appears to cross over to the other line.

Thanks Rich, I should have pointed out that the left-most configuration is that for the topgallant.  I am still not satisfied that would work though. The Rigging Warrant list chain for the tye but NO gin block. The size (diameter) of the mast at the stop is very small and if a sheave hole was cut within, there would be no meat left to support the mast.  I have therefore assumed the use of a gin block as this is also advised by several authors.  I have not been able to establish whether to mount it to the side to clear the other ropes or to the front noting your comment.  To the front may give a better pull BUT would interfere with other ropes.

 

Sorry too highjack the discussion Rob, but I hope it helps a little when you get to that yard?

 

I have found some online plans for Flying Fish but they do not show that illustration you use unfortunately, will have to keep looking .

 

cheers

 

Pat

[rwiederrich]

Pat ……I love both of your examples. But if you examine the action of the tie cable….. you will see. That the action will not permit a parral lift cable to be affixed that would not be in danger of following the rotation of the chain along its gin block travel.  Making it useable.  
 

Under normal tie lift action,  the parral lift cable affixes to the central tie chain.  And both move in tandem. One lifting the yard, the other lifting the parral band.  Without this cable, the parral band will bind. 
 

Rob

Edited Sunday at 01:42 PM by rwiederrich

[BANYAN]

That's a good point Rob, and one I had not considered. While the Rigging Warrant is silent on this cable/rope, it makes practical sense to have one fitted/rigged, so I will probably add that.

 

cheers

 

Pat

[rwiederrich]

I began the construction of the 3 lower masts.  
Turned , tapered and marked out banding locations.   
 

Rob