Sail feedback request, Mondfeld method

[travis]

Looking for some community feedback.  I'm starting sails for my third build, Occre Apostle Felipe.  So approx 17th century spanish galleon from the silver fleet (mexico).  Each build I've tried a different sail strategy.  This time, I've used a lot of reference on this build from Wolfram Mondfeld's book,  historic ship models. I noticed he has a unique sail making approach that i don't think I've seen on any posts here.  His approach is press/steam a seam for each panel of the sail and then straight stich those seams.  So a bit more than just using the stitch to create the panels but an actual hem.  It's a lot of work.  Also quite hard to steam the small seams at a consistent width and sew the seams.  In my attempt, I have a 3mm overlap of fabric which results in about 12mm panels (model scale is 1:60).  Interested in everyone's feedback before I commit to all the sails.  This one is a spritsail.  First image is the sample before hemming the edges.  Second image is the sail supplied by occre which is of course to heavy a fabric.  Constructive criticism acceptable!

 

[travis]

Here's holding to the light to see the overlapping hem better.

 

[druxey]

You've done a very neat job, but there is basic problem of scale. You mention 1:60, and one can never stitch that finely to be even close to scale, as well as the material is over scale thickness. What youa re doing is also very labor-intensive. Now, if that's the way you want to do it, read no further!

 

A better way, IMHO, is to uses the material called SilkSpan. It is essentially a thin but strong paper product. The overlaps can be easily simulated with acrylic paint applied using a bow pen. The reinforcing edges are glued and rope also applied using white glue or matte acrylic varnish. An example is pictured below at 1:48 scale. Instructions of how to make sails using this technique are available through SeaWatchBooks:

 

https://seawatchbooks.com/products/swan-iv-sail-making-supplement-from-the-revised-and-expanded-edition-by-david-antscherl

 

 

[Kenchington]

I have to agree with @druxey. In fact, as I move towards sailmaking for my current build, I was going to post something about scales and sails. I'll not put that here but the points I may yet work towards are (1) if you can see the warp and weft of your canvas, then it is out of scale and (2) unless you can make cross-stitches at finer than 200 to the inch, then any sewing will probably be out of scale too.

 

When sailmaking by hand, stitch size depends on needle size and needle size has to match the weight of the canvas. I have a bag made, by the sailmaker on the big Russian barque Sedov, from a fragment of one of his ship's old sails -- so some synthetic equivalent to double-ought storm canvas. He worked four stitches to the inch -- 240 to the inch at 1:60. Good luck trying to replicate that!

 

Anyone who likes the look of sewn model sails should go with their preference, of course, but they won't be to scale.

 

Trevor

[Kenchington]

Maybe I should add some other evidence. These are modern synthetics (probably Dacron) and machine-stitched but a full-size squarerigger's sails, when in use, can look like:

Note that seams, tablings and various reinforcing pieces are visible but stitches are not.

 

Alternatively, in close-up, the same sails look like:

Hand-woven flax-and-hemp sailcloth would have a much coarser weave, of course (and hand-stitching doesn't give the zigzag effect). But an argument for the Silkspan approach anyway.

 

Trevor

[JerryTodd]

There's way too much focus on seams.  The only reason you see seam on real sails is because the material is 4 layers thick (2 layers on modern sails), and that's when the light's behind them.  When the light's in front, you see the shadow of the edge of the seam.  Most kits run in the 1:64 to 1:48 scale range, for square-riggers, and the thread in those stitch-line "seams" scale from the size of a man's wrist, up to nearly the size of a tow-cable in diameter! - a bit much to represent a shadow.
Most kits, especially the ones anyone can afford, are filled with parts-bin parts that don't match the model's scale, and wind up being much to oversized and clunky looking, and in rare cases, under-sized and diminutive.  Any sail-cloth included is usually some burlap looking muslin scraps from an upholstery shop, that sometimes they run some anchor-chain through to save you the time making them even worst.
I personally think the best approach is to imply the shadow of the seams by drawing them on with fine (.03) permanent marker.  I draw all the seams on one side of the sail, and again on the other side just a little off to imply seam width.
My sails may not be fair representations as they are made for working models at a larger scale than most static models (1:36 & 1:20), but they do show the effect of drawn seams, which also don't suffer from puckering the way stitch-line seams do.

(click the pics till you get them full-size)

  

 

 

The actual boat for comparison...

 

Edited yesterday at 02:23 AM by JerryTodd

[travis]

Thank all, I keep reading about silkspan but hadn't gotten the initiative to give it a try yet, in part becuase it's not a available at the local hobby shop and there seems to be a lot of "fake named" products online? Just trying to find a good supplier thats in the US (darn tarrifs!) thats not overcharging or excesive shipping.  

 

I did try an interesting aproach on my first build (a schooner).  On that one i used a light fabric and carefully "pulled" a single thread out where each seam would be.  Still of course out of scale but a pretty cool look for a larger scale build (1:40 I think?).  Can't get it to work on a tighter weave fabric though.  

 

I think i will make a try for sourcing the silkspan/modelspan first and if that doesn't work out I'll go for the penciled fabric.

[Y.T.]

Finding a silkspan is not a problem. I got as much of it as I wanted here:

 

https://sigmfg.com/products/sig-silkspan-tissue

 

I just want to warn you that from my own experience I tried making the sail from it and abandoned the idea later. Silkspan is way too brittle and impossible to repair. I spent a week working on one sail and got it torn off in a second. Since then I abandoned the idea of silkspan. I work with very light batiste. You can look at my endeavors here. First picture of broken silkspan sail. Next is from thin fabric. Scale is 1:90

 

 

[travis]

@Y.T. I was wondering about the durability.  I wonder if it can be layered/laminated for strength?

 

That batiste fabric sounds interesting though too.  Going to look that up.

[Dr PR]

Silkspan is the way to go for sails at the smaller scales (1:48 and smaller). The thinnest grade (SIGST001) is approximately scale thickness for 1:48 to 1:72 scale.

 

When wet it is VERY fragile, but when it is dry it is very tough. It became popular for wing and fuselage coverings on flying model airplanes.

 

Here are some links telling my experiences making sails from it. There was a learning curve, but the results are pretty good.

 

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/19611-albatros-by-dr-pr-finished-mantua-scale-148-revenue-cutter-kitbash-about-1815/?do=findComment&comment=1035898

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/19611-albatros-by-dr-pr-finished-mantua-scale-148-revenue-cutter-kitbash-about-1815/?do=findComment&comment=1035392

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/19611-albatros-by-dr-pr-finished-mantua-scale-148-revenue-cutter-kitbash-about-1815/?do=findComment&comment=1039363

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/19611-albatros-by-dr-pr-finished-mantua-scale-148-revenue-cutter-kitbash-about-1815/?do=findComment&comment=1049586

 

In my opinion those heavy cloth stitched sails that come with kits look awful!