JohnE

Johan, your work is exquisite, and your choice of music for your video is perfekt. Boccerini's Op 30, No 6 was for a string quartet. The Master & Commander people did it up as a serious duet, violin and cello. Incredible trnscription.
 
J

Johan, your work is exquisite, and your choice of music for your video is perfekt. Boccerini's Op 30, No 6 was for a string quartet. The Master & Commander people did it up as a serious duet, violin and cello. Incredible trnscription.
 
J

I may just give the final draught set a ‘bogus’ waterline. Review of the Cornélie Devis and the sailing trials of Citoyen Villemaurin, Capitaine de Vaisseau, shows 5 different waterlines (tirants d’deu) under 5 different load conditions.
 
First isTirant d’eau du batiment absolument: basically push her off the stocks and see how the hull floats. Next is Tirant d’eau ayant des bas mats; basically the hull with “stuff” including the lower masts. Next is something having to do with fully rigged and ballasted and perhaps armed – this page curves into the center of the volume and the text is indecipherable from the image. Next is a similar entry, but one can distinguish “moins deux, moins de biscuit”. This is the first entry that records height of battery. So I presume this is the full-boggie ship awaiting men, water, wine, and stores. Last is Tirant d’eau en charge: fully loaded, good-to-go.
 
Notably, the Tirant d’eau en charge exhibits a height of battery of 6pi, 2po, 4li. Sané puts the battery height at 6pi, 2po, in the Reglement Devis; 1/3 of an inch, not bad.
 
Yes, looks like all of this is empirical. It also looks like French frigates (Sané frigates) trimmed down a bit at the head. There was drag, but only half what you would expect.
 
The documents have pages of blank entries. These were from Plan 1 to 5 of Villemaurin’s tests.Villemaurin’s journals are lost to us. His entries were never transcribed into the Devis document for Cornélie. We have lost much
 
John

Odd that the rake of the stern in that Justice draught is so elegantly raked, but the headwork looks like a turned-up nose!

A project to make/build plans for a French frigate.
 
A Virginie class frigate, Cornélie was launched in 1797, at Brest, and was built on the same lines as Courageuse, launched at Brest in 1794 (renamed Justice, April, 1795). Something happened at Brest (in the region of the buttocks), and these two ships exhibited such superior sailing qualities that Cornélie was subject of several sailing trials, under “Commandement du Citoyen Villemaurin, Capitaine de Vaisseau”.
 
One thing led to another, and Sané’ went on to design the penultimate Pallas class, but notably, the “lines” were from the Justice/ Cornélie, with minor variations to reflect the minor changes in principal dimensions instantiated in the Hortense class. Notwithstanding the Réglement of 1808, Sané prepared a document, dated March 1810, entitled “Devis d’execution des frégates la Justice et la Cornélie” whence he detailed every single line, in tabular form.
 
Why do this in 1810, when both ships were off the rolls, and the 1808 réglement was in effect? Maybe because they fulfilled requirements so well, that he simply had to have a record of these ships for his portfolio. Who really knows. Suffice to say that he did and they are taken as the sine qua non of Sané frigate design.
 
Something wonderful appears in the SHD official records for this and a few other devis’; there are marginal notes, in Sané’s hand, interspersed throughout the document, but there are other notes, annotated in light pencil, that serve to relate certain dimensions to their earlier form. I like to think these were annotations by Monsieur Boudriot, in furtherance of his research. I can’t imagine the SHD allowing anyone to deface their holdings, except for Jean Boudriot. Needless to say, they were totally appropriate and substantively important.
 
So why the Cornélie? A good question. Apart from the historical significance of the ship, I am, like Messieurs Boudriou et Delacroix, a hopeless romantic. She had 11 very productive years in service, the longest of any of her class, and saw action at Finisterre, the Med, and Trafalgar.
 
Cornelia is often taken as a Romanization of Helen: a woman who launched a thousand ships and whose beauty set the ancient world afire. She had to be a redhead.
 
Cornelia Scipionis Africana was the daughter of Publius Cornelius Scipio Africanus. She was the mother of the Gracchi (Tiberius and Gaius) and Sempronia, who married Publius Cornelius Scipio Aemilianus (Scipio the younger). She is said to have been beautiful beyond the art of men to describe. She refused a marriage proposal from King Ptolemy Euergetes (king of the Ptolemaic dynasty in Egypt) because she was Roman. A model of duty, virtue, and feminine pulchritude, Rome worshiped her, and upon her death voted a statue in her honor at the entry of the civic forum.
 
Right … The info comes from the French Devis d’execution of Cornélie, Justice, Virginie, Pallas, and Venus, from SHD. Some lines come from the build draught of la Justice, from SHD Rochefort, modified by Sané’s lines tables. Some fiddly bits and niggling details come from the NMM draughts of Virginie.
 
Should be good enough to go, don’t ya think?
 
John

You guys crack me up. That's beautiful Bava. I especially like the wine stains, makes me feel right at home. Could have been that night when me and the Admiral were getting frisky with some new Beaujolais. Thanks for doing that. I'm going to print and frame it.
 
Thought I would post the Rochefort plan, since I talk about it enough. Comparing the plans shows some of the anomalies I've been having to deal with. Rochefort shows her pierced 13. But the Virginie class was pierced 14 (viz, NMM plan of Virginie) as well as Boudriot's Venus. I pierced Cornélie 14 and positioned the sabords according to Sané's Devis. They follow along well and the 14th plopped right into the blank space in the Chambre du Commandant; so move the bed, Dude.

The head and bow profile of the Rochefort Justice is ugly as sin; short, high, choppy, truncated, mumph. The Virginie plan shows a much different bow profile and one that is reminiscent of the Venus. The Pallas class Eregon plan has a similar elegant bow profile. Even the Armide exhibits that elongated elegance. So I followed Sané's rake and curvature rules from the gabarit d'etrave of the Devis and stuck a Virginie/Eregon proue on it.
 
Topside details are also very much a hybrid. Mine are a mix of Justice, Venus, Eregon and Vial du Clairbois, Pl 2. There's lots more detail in the white paper that accompanies the basic plan set, about the ship and the whys and wherefores of her provenance and the departures therefrom. Guess it really is a frégate de 28 Canons de 18 en Batterie, par Johné after all. Thank you all, and Ciao. John

Bit more marginal progress on the profile. Added some moulding to the rails and the quarter galleries, for CaptArmstrong. It's a bit crude but he's right, it does add a skoosh of pizzaz. Showing a peek of the cabestan on the QD. I'll have that full-view on the internal profile plan. Also saw that Vial has stanchions bracketing the entry port, so I put some in there as well.
 
Thing this plan view is getting to the diminishing returns stage, so off to the internal detail profile. Need to have something suitably close to complete for when Bava wants to do a 3D of her.
 
Still no carving art, but have recieved an offer of assistance that can't be refused. I think she's going to be a beauty.
 
J
 

Looks like you go to the top of the class, John! Remarkable.

Crikey.. I just now saw Bava's edit.   Druxey's right, John.. go to the head and I'll add have a tall cold one.  

She already is a beauty, John,  a beautiful french lady.
 
And it looks like this plan is going to be an absolute joy to work with
 
Edit:
 
Looks like the original plan for La Cornélie has been found in the archives...your version is spot on, John!
 

 
Why Sané is mis-spelled Johné and it has a scale with french and british feet is still a mistery for historians, though.

Bit more marginal progress on the profile. Added some moulding to the rails and the quarter galleries, for CaptArmstrong. It's a bit crude but he's right, it does add a skoosh of pizzaz. Showing a peek of the cabestan on the QD. I'll have that full-view on the internal profile plan. Also saw that Vial has stanchions bracketing the entry port, so I put some in there as well.
 
Thing this plan view is getting to the diminishing returns stage, so off to the internal detail profile. Need to have something suitably close to complete for when Bava wants to do a 3D of her.
 
Still no carving art, but have recieved an offer of assistance that can't be refused. I think she's going to be a beauty.
 
J
 

Bit more marginal progress on the profile. Added some moulding to the rails and the quarter galleries, for CaptArmstrong. It's a bit crude but he's right, it does add a skoosh of pizzaz. Showing a peek of the cabestan on the QD. I'll have that full-view on the internal profile plan. Also saw that Vial has stanchions bracketing the entry port, so I put some in there as well.
 
Thing this plan view is getting to the diminishing returns stage, so off to the internal detail profile. Need to have something suitably close to complete for when Bava wants to do a 3D of her.
 
Still no carving art, but have recieved an offer of assistance that can't be refused. I think she's going to be a beauty.
 
J
 

Bit more marginal progress on the profile. Added some moulding to the rails and the quarter galleries, for CaptArmstrong. It's a bit crude but he's right, it does add a skoosh of pizzaz. Showing a peek of the cabestan on the QD. I'll have that full-view on the internal profile plan. Also saw that Vial has stanchions bracketing the entry port, so I put some in there as well.
 
Thing this plan view is getting to the diminishing returns stage, so off to the internal detail profile. Need to have something suitably close to complete for when Bava wants to do a 3D of her.
 
Still no carving art, but have recieved an offer of assistance that can't be refused. I think she's going to be a beauty.
 
J
 

A minor update, model wise.  A biggie for me.      The stern is more or less complete.  It still needs the carvings and the taffrail needs the finials but those are in-work and may be that way for some time as I move on to other things.   I carve while waiting for glue to dry, etc.
 
I was playing with the camera and some settings... here's the inboard side of the stern unplanked and then planked in silver maple.  I'm using the maple where things would have been white-washed.  The planked version also shows part of the taffrail installed.
 

 
From the outboard side with part taffrail installed.
 

 
This is the two other pieces of the taffrail on the scroll saw using the ScrollSander to clean off the laser char and finesse the fit.  The final finessing was using a file and sanding sticks.
 

 
And with the full taffrail installed.  It needs a bit of cleanup and some wipe-on poly, but I'll that when get the carvings ready.  The quarter galleries need to be built also before finishing.  It's a  bit off (about 1mm on the port side) but I'll live with it.  
 

 
All in all, I'm pretty chuffed about this as it was a big learning curve.  I wanted the joinery perfect.. not quite there yet but to my eye, it looks good.  Next up is the rudder while I sort out the quarter galleries.  These have a bit of unusual shape in that they curve out past the stern and then back to the hull, like a half circle only not...  Hard to explain but I'm researching and sorting it out.
 
 

Great show, Bava. Wish you could do that for Cornelie.
 
J

Started with the fiddly bits..and slapped some colour on it - no proper textures yet, though. The colour scheme is based on the contemporary model (ca. 1780) of the Bellona and the Gustav Adolph.
 
 

 
 

 
And thanks for the likes, guys!

Thanks to everyone for your kind comments. I have only been in the modelling world for a couple, three, years, so some of my things might seem a bit rough around the edges. I am very appreciative of the interest and assistance I have received from people on the NRG forum. You folks are the tops.
 
Just for grins, I thought it appropriate to show the source for my take on the Renommee. Having these documents is valuable, but the really cool part is reading through them and getting to the end and, ... there it is ... signé Sané. Can't imagine a bigger thrill for an amateur historian.
 

 
ps. my photos of documents in SH321 and SH 325 with the kind permission of .le Service historique de la Défense.
 
John

Thanks to everyone for your kind comments. I have only been in the modelling world for a couple, three, years, so some of my things might seem a bit rough around the edges. I am very appreciative of the interest and assistance I have received from people on the NRG forum. You folks are the tops.
 
Just for grins, I thought it appropriate to show the source for my take on the Renommee. Having these documents is valuable, but the really cool part is reading through them and getting to the end and, ... there it is ... signé Sané. Can't imagine a bigger thrill for an amateur historian.
 

 
ps. my photos of documents in SH321 and SH 325 with the kind permission of .le Service historique de la Défense.
 
John

Thanks to everyone for your kind comments. I have only been in the modelling world for a couple, three, years, so some of my things might seem a bit rough around the edges. I am very appreciative of the interest and assistance I have received from people on the NRG forum. You folks are the tops.
 
Just for grins, I thought it appropriate to show the source for my take on the Renommee. Having these documents is valuable, but the really cool part is reading through them and getting to the end and, ... there it is ... signé Sané. Can't imagine a bigger thrill for an amateur historian.
 

 
ps. my photos of documents in SH321 and SH 325 with the kind permission of .le Service historique de la Défense.
 
John

Awesome research, JohnE.
 
Humbly received. Much to ponder ...

For uss frolick.
 
I was doing some double checking of values and was looking through the devis of the Pallas, when right at the top of page 181 was the heading, in Sane’s handwriting:
 
Releve du trace a la Salle des fregates la Pallas, l’Arethuse, et la Renommee, en construction a la basse-Indre, et la Clorinde en Construction a Paimboeuf. [l’Arethuse was lined-through and l’Elbe annotated above it]
 
There are marginal notes, written by Sane, that specifically refer to Renommee (and Pallas, Elbe, Clorinde) and some minor departures made therefrom by the next series of Nantes vessels; Ariane, Nymphe, Meduse (1810 launches).
 
On pages 184 and 185, there are sections entitled “Acastillage [sic] de la Proue” and “Acastillage de la Poupe”. I am confident she had a beakhead bulkhead. The bow timbers topped off at the standard location approximately 3pi 6po above the level of the main (gun) deck. Station VII (beakhead) timbers extend to the nominal drift. A beakhead bulkhead is strongly indicated.
 
As to her transom, the Pallas class was “straightened-up”. Hard to say when this happened; maybe somewhere in the Hortense class, or perhaps with the ‘Reglement’ in the Pallas class. Earlier designs (Hebe/Venus and Virginie) had an elegant 30 degree rake to the transom. Hortense is indeterminate. Pallas had a 20 degree rake. The same things happened with steeve, sheer, and tumblehome. Stern timbering was identical to earlier vessels except for the degree of vertical rake.
 
From all this, I am inclined to view the Renommee model as somewhat “fanciful” in its details. Pallas, Elbe, Renommee were the lead ships of the ‘Reglement’ and were built side-by-side, at basse-Indre, and launched within 3 months of one another. They were closely monitored (viz, Sane’s notes on comparison with the next launched ships), so there would not be any opportunity for changes, at least not without major annotations to the Releve.
 
I submit that Renommee was a typical Sane frigate when she was captured and taken into British service as Java.
 
Humbly submitted. John

For uss frolick.
 
I was doing some double checking of values and was looking through the devis of the Pallas, when right at the top of page 181 was the heading, in Sane’s handwriting:
 
Releve du trace a la Salle des fregates la Pallas, l’Arethuse, et la Renommee, en construction a la basse-Indre, et la Clorinde en Construction a Paimboeuf. [l’Arethuse was lined-through and l’Elbe annotated above it]
 
There are marginal notes, written by Sane, that specifically refer to Renommee (and Pallas, Elbe, Clorinde) and some minor departures made therefrom by the next series of Nantes vessels; Ariane, Nymphe, Meduse (1810 launches).
 
On pages 184 and 185, there are sections entitled “Acastillage [sic] de la Proue” and “Acastillage de la Poupe”. I am confident she had a beakhead bulkhead. The bow timbers topped off at the standard location approximately 3pi 6po above the level of the main (gun) deck. Station VII (beakhead) timbers extend to the nominal drift. A beakhead bulkhead is strongly indicated.
 
As to her transom, the Pallas class was “straightened-up”. Hard to say when this happened; maybe somewhere in the Hortense class, or perhaps with the ‘Reglement’ in the Pallas class. Earlier designs (Hebe/Venus and Virginie) had an elegant 30 degree rake to the transom. Hortense is indeterminate. Pallas had a 20 degree rake. The same things happened with steeve, sheer, and tumblehome. Stern timbering was identical to earlier vessels except for the degree of vertical rake.
 
From all this, I am inclined to view the Renommee model as somewhat “fanciful” in its details. Pallas, Elbe, Renommee were the lead ships of the ‘Reglement’ and were built side-by-side, at basse-Indre, and launched within 3 months of one another. They were closely monitored (viz, Sane’s notes on comparison with the next launched ships), so there would not be any opportunity for changes, at least not without major annotations to the Releve.
 
I submit that Renommee was a typical Sane frigate when she was captured and taken into British service as Java.
 
Humbly submitted. John

For uss frolick.
 
I was doing some double checking of values and was looking through the devis of the Pallas, when right at the top of page 181 was the heading, in Sane’s handwriting:
 
Releve du trace a la Salle des fregates la Pallas, l’Arethuse, et la Renommee, en construction a la basse-Indre, et la Clorinde en Construction a Paimboeuf. [l’Arethuse was lined-through and l’Elbe annotated above it]
 
There are marginal notes, written by Sane, that specifically refer to Renommee (and Pallas, Elbe, Clorinde) and some minor departures made therefrom by the next series of Nantes vessels; Ariane, Nymphe, Meduse (1810 launches).
 
On pages 184 and 185, there are sections entitled “Acastillage [sic] de la Proue” and “Acastillage de la Poupe”. I am confident she had a beakhead bulkhead. The bow timbers topped off at the standard location approximately 3pi 6po above the level of the main (gun) deck. Station VII (beakhead) timbers extend to the nominal drift. A beakhead bulkhead is strongly indicated.
 
As to her transom, the Pallas class was “straightened-up”. Hard to say when this happened; maybe somewhere in the Hortense class, or perhaps with the ‘Reglement’ in the Pallas class. Earlier designs (Hebe/Venus and Virginie) had an elegant 30 degree rake to the transom. Hortense is indeterminate. Pallas had a 20 degree rake. The same things happened with steeve, sheer, and tumblehome. Stern timbering was identical to earlier vessels except for the degree of vertical rake.
 
From all this, I am inclined to view the Renommee model as somewhat “fanciful” in its details. Pallas, Elbe, Renommee were the lead ships of the ‘Reglement’ and were built side-by-side, at basse-Indre, and launched within 3 months of one another. They were closely monitored (viz, Sane’s notes on comparison with the next launched ships), so there would not be any opportunity for changes, at least not without major annotations to the Releve.
 
I submit that Renommee was a typical Sane frigate when she was captured and taken into British service as Java.
 
Humbly submitted. John

For uss frolick.
 
I was doing some double checking of values and was looking through the devis of the Pallas, when right at the top of page 181 was the heading, in Sane’s handwriting:
 
Releve du trace a la Salle des fregates la Pallas, l’Arethuse, et la Renommee, en construction a la basse-Indre, et la Clorinde en Construction a Paimboeuf. [l’Arethuse was lined-through and l’Elbe annotated above it]
 
There are marginal notes, written by Sane, that specifically refer to Renommee (and Pallas, Elbe, Clorinde) and some minor departures made therefrom by the next series of Nantes vessels; Ariane, Nymphe, Meduse (1810 launches).
 
On pages 184 and 185, there are sections entitled “Acastillage [sic] de la Proue” and “Acastillage de la Poupe”. I am confident she had a beakhead bulkhead. The bow timbers topped off at the standard location approximately 3pi 6po above the level of the main (gun) deck. Station VII (beakhead) timbers extend to the nominal drift. A beakhead bulkhead is strongly indicated.
 
As to her transom, the Pallas class was “straightened-up”. Hard to say when this happened; maybe somewhere in the Hortense class, or perhaps with the ‘Reglement’ in the Pallas class. Earlier designs (Hebe/Venus and Virginie) had an elegant 30 degree rake to the transom. Hortense is indeterminate. Pallas had a 20 degree rake. The same things happened with steeve, sheer, and tumblehome. Stern timbering was identical to earlier vessels except for the degree of vertical rake.
 
From all this, I am inclined to view the Renommee model as somewhat “fanciful” in its details. Pallas, Elbe, Renommee were the lead ships of the ‘Reglement’ and were built side-by-side, at basse-Indre, and launched within 3 months of one another. They were closely monitored (viz, Sane’s notes on comparison with the next launched ships), so there would not be any opportunity for changes, at least not without major annotations to the Releve.
 
I submit that Renommee was a typical Sane frigate when she was captured and taken into British service as Java.
 
Humbly submitted. John

No, druxey, I didn't. I just checked again and there's nothing in the inbox.
 
J