Talos

Well, Chapelle was guessing that the 20-gun ship is an improved version of Maryland and Patapsco, soooo..... Merrimack should be pretty easy to do a generic Federal frigate of the era on her dimensions. I'm not sure on the other ships since I have to do some research on them first.
 
And yeah, I do the diagrams because it adds a lot to me too. Really puts things in perspective and makes it easy to compare. If there's any particular ships through Chapelle's books that you want to see lined up, let me know, I have many of them scanned already.

I’ve been fascinated with those two particular plans for a while. I included them in one of my profile comparisons, alongside the privateer Rattlesnake and the (incorrect!) Cyane.
 
The 18-gun one is just so weird, compared to the warships I’m used to seeing. More merchant-like for sure, but still too sharp to be a civilian one, too big for an illegal trader. Chapelle argues that she must be a naval or merchant-cruiser. He also suggests that it was a design by Fox because of the nature of her stem.
 
As far as the 20, it’s got the appearance of the typical American frigates of the era. Looking at the plans of John Adams and this ship, they’re virtually identical above the waterline except for size. Chapelle suggests that it was a design for an improved version of Maryland and Patapsco, nearly identical dimensions but with fewer guns and higher gunports to correct the guns on the earlier ships being very low. He also compares the ship to the Brazen-class Cyane post ship, which had more guns on the main deck, but 6pdrs instead of 9pdrs, and was the better sailor because it wasn't as overloaded until the War of 1812 when it carried 32 guns instead. I’ve pointed it out before, but I will again, but Chapelle got the wrong Cyane plans when he sent for them. The ones in the book are the older 18-gun Bittern-class sloop Cyane, not the 26-gun Brazen-class Cyane the Americans captured. Thinking it was the War of 1812 ship, he refitted the drawing with solid bulwarks like most ships of the era received. That’s the plan I have in the comparison I’m linking.
 
As far as the other ships go, Chapelle points out that everything in this era down to sloops tended to be shrunken versions of the 44s, at least above-water style-wise. You can see that comparing John Adams and the 20-gun ship. As long as you get the proportions and dimensions right, you can probably do a fair amount basing off of the 20-gun, Constitution/Constellation/Chesapeake, and the Philly, New York, Boston, and Essex.

Brigs I actually already have you covered. I did two of them, one sheet for the 1830s ships, one for the older ones. The one I'm most fascinated by is the unbuilt USS Burrows, a large, late brig, over 120 feet long. I'll compare some of the frigate body plans later since I can overlay them easily.

Yeah I imagine it's matter of knowing builders inclinations, taking known dimensions and then knowing what was the fashion of the time and putting it all together. Canney also suggests the plan might also be of Merrimack or at the very least a very similar example which with a bit of imagination could come together as a nice model. Talos I'd love to see the brings lined up, specifically a lot of the ones from 1830 onwards when brigs became less of a staple in the fleet, so Boxer, Perry and Lawrence for examples. I've been looking at those old Bluejacket kits that exist of Boxer and Perry one day I'd like to build those so finding those ships of particular interest at the moment.
 
So that said I suppose I should ask what were the identifiable traits to a Fox plan or a Humphrey's plan? Or Hackett or Griece? I imagine there is a design evolution that each follow on their own way (of course some of them were specific to the time they lived) but that'd actually be pretty cool to see how the plans from each builder evolved over the years and what each builder brought to style and structure (sleek or bulky lines, more/less traditional). Interesting stuff!

Well, Chapelle was guessing that the 20-gun ship is an improved version of Maryland and Patapsco, soooo..... Merrimack should be pretty easy to do a generic Federal frigate of the era on her dimensions. I'm not sure on the other ships since I have to do some research on them first.
 
And yeah, I do the diagrams because it adds a lot to me too. Really puts things in perspective and makes it easy to compare. If there's any particular ships through Chapelle's books that you want to see lined up, let me know, I have many of them scanned already.

Hello everyone! I would like to take a quick moment to discuss the unidentified 20 gun ship referenced in Chapelle's book. It is used as an example of what some of the subscription and Contracted sloops of 1798 may have looked like. That said it gets a little confusing to me so would like to defer to the great collective wisdoms of this site for clarity.
 
So first off we have the 3 ships Merrimack, Maryland and Chesapeake (which was renamed to Patapsco). All were around 24 guns and all seemed to have quarterdecks. Donald Canney and Chapelle seem to point to the plans below as being a similar example to these ships but can't be them because the plans are dated 1799. We then have ships built by private contractors Connecticut, Portsmouth, Warren and Trumbull. The first seem to be 24 gun sloops while the latter are 20 gun. There was also a brig named Richmond. Descriptions of their carvings have been recorded to varying levels of completeness but no plans however we can assume they were of similar ilk.
 
That's the easy part, next we have a bunch of ships which appear to be purchases.  These ships are the General Washington, Montezuma, Ganges, Adriana renamed Baltimore, another renamed Delaware, Herald and two brigs named Norfolk and Augusta. Of these ships it seems that the General Washington was the largest and most impressive. Also many of the others share commonalities to merchant ships and were likely conversions. Chapelle offers a second plan of a through deck sloop with merchant-like qualities of 18 guns which based on dimensions and design I am assuming could represent what some of these ships looked like.
 
All these ships were essentially replaced in 1801 when the superior(?) Federal and subscription frigates were put into service.
This period is fascinating since so little is known about it (much less than even the subscription era that came afterwards). So let's say one wanted to build a model based off these two plans or of some of these aforementioned sloop (mini-frigates?) how would one go about it? By this I mean lets say I wanted to build Merrimack, Patapsco or Maryland one day using the figure 22 plans as a guide is there enough info to do so? Same with figure 23 could any of the merchant ships look most like that one if any? Could the Warren or Trumbull which had no quarterdeck be examples of such a ship. This is of course all conjectural I'm trying to determine what ships have a decent amount of information preserved vs those which have none.  So lets discuss

Yeah Talos great help with the explanations and diagrams thank you. Seeing them lined up adds so much perspective. That's what Im thinking though some of the ships (as long as the dimensions and ornamentations have been recorded) could be recreated as reasonably accurate models if one chose to do so since they followed that shrunken 44 design for the most part. Id say replicating Merrimack, Maryland or Patapsco is possible (I forget what info exists for which) (paging sir frolick), but then you have other ships like General Washington or Montezuma where replication is probably impossible unless you are John Millar and have that gift lol. But also if you wanted to lets say use these two plans to build two ship models and give them names according to the aforementioned ships which would work best and why in your opinions?

That unidentified 20 ship plan has the look of a reduced Essex, me-thinks, especially about the bow, and the body plan, so I wondered if she might not be the USS Merrimack, 1798, who, I believe, was also built by William Hackett of Salem. Totally subjective observation, of course ...

I’ve been fascinated with those two particular plans for a while. I included them in one of my profile comparisons, alongside the privateer Rattlesnake and the (incorrect!) Cyane.
 
The 18-gun one is just so weird, compared to the warships I’m used to seeing. More merchant-like for sure, but still too sharp to be a civilian one, too big for an illegal trader. Chapelle argues that she must be a naval or merchant-cruiser. He also suggests that it was a design by Fox because of the nature of her stem.
 
As far as the 20, it’s got the appearance of the typical American frigates of the era. Looking at the plans of John Adams and this ship, they’re virtually identical above the waterline except for size. Chapelle suggests that it was a design for an improved version of Maryland and Patapsco, nearly identical dimensions but with fewer guns and higher gunports to correct the guns on the earlier ships being very low. He also compares the ship to the Brazen-class Cyane post ship, which had more guns on the main deck, but 6pdrs instead of 9pdrs, and was the better sailor because it wasn't as overloaded until the War of 1812 when it carried 32 guns instead. I’ve pointed it out before, but I will again, but Chapelle got the wrong Cyane plans when he sent for them. The ones in the book are the older 18-gun Bittern-class sloop Cyane, not the 26-gun Brazen-class Cyane the Americans captured. Thinking it was the War of 1812 ship, he refitted the drawing with solid bulwarks like most ships of the era received. That’s the plan I have in the comparison I’m linking.
 
As far as the other ships go, Chapelle points out that everything in this era down to sloops tended to be shrunken versions of the 44s, at least above-water style-wise. You can see that comparing John Adams and the 20-gun ship. As long as you get the proportions and dimensions right, you can probably do a fair amount basing off of the 20-gun, Constitution/Constellation/Chesapeake, and the Philly, New York, Boston, and Essex.

Well, Chapelle was guessing that the 20-gun ship is an improved version of Maryland and Patapsco, soooo..... Merrimack should be pretty easy to do a generic Federal frigate of the era on her dimensions. I'm not sure on the other ships since I have to do some research on them first.
 
And yeah, I do the diagrams because it adds a lot to me too. Really puts things in perspective and makes it easy to compare. If there's any particular ships through Chapelle's books that you want to see lined up, let me know, I have many of them scanned already.

Well, Chapelle was guessing that the 20-gun ship is an improved version of Maryland and Patapsco, soooo..... Merrimack should be pretty easy to do a generic Federal frigate of the era on her dimensions. I'm not sure on the other ships since I have to do some research on them first.
 
And yeah, I do the diagrams because it adds a lot to me too. Really puts things in perspective and makes it easy to compare. If there's any particular ships through Chapelle's books that you want to see lined up, let me know, I have many of them scanned already.

I’ve been fascinated with those two particular plans for a while. I included them in one of my profile comparisons, alongside the privateer Rattlesnake and the (incorrect!) Cyane.
 
The 18-gun one is just so weird, compared to the warships I’m used to seeing. More merchant-like for sure, but still too sharp to be a civilian one, too big for an illegal trader. Chapelle argues that she must be a naval or merchant-cruiser. He also suggests that it was a design by Fox because of the nature of her stem.
 
As far as the 20, it’s got the appearance of the typical American frigates of the era. Looking at the plans of John Adams and this ship, they’re virtually identical above the waterline except for size. Chapelle suggests that it was a design for an improved version of Maryland and Patapsco, nearly identical dimensions but with fewer guns and higher gunports to correct the guns on the earlier ships being very low. He also compares the ship to the Brazen-class Cyane post ship, which had more guns on the main deck, but 6pdrs instead of 9pdrs, and was the better sailor because it wasn't as overloaded until the War of 1812 when it carried 32 guns instead. I’ve pointed it out before, but I will again, but Chapelle got the wrong Cyane plans when he sent for them. The ones in the book are the older 18-gun Bittern-class sloop Cyane, not the 26-gun Brazen-class Cyane the Americans captured. Thinking it was the War of 1812 ship, he refitted the drawing with solid bulwarks like most ships of the era received. That’s the plan I have in the comparison I’m linking.
 
As far as the other ships go, Chapelle points out that everything in this era down to sloops tended to be shrunken versions of the 44s, at least above-water style-wise. You can see that comparing John Adams and the 20-gun ship. As long as you get the proportions and dimensions right, you can probably do a fair amount basing off of the 20-gun, Constitution/Constellation/Chesapeake, and the Philly, New York, Boston, and Essex.

I’ve been fascinated with those two particular plans for a while. I included them in one of my profile comparisons, alongside the privateer Rattlesnake and the (incorrect!) Cyane.
 
The 18-gun one is just so weird, compared to the warships I’m used to seeing. More merchant-like for sure, but still too sharp to be a civilian one, too big for an illegal trader. Chapelle argues that she must be a naval or merchant-cruiser. He also suggests that it was a design by Fox because of the nature of her stem.
 
As far as the 20, it’s got the appearance of the typical American frigates of the era. Looking at the plans of John Adams and this ship, they’re virtually identical above the waterline except for size. Chapelle suggests that it was a design for an improved version of Maryland and Patapsco, nearly identical dimensions but with fewer guns and higher gunports to correct the guns on the earlier ships being very low. He also compares the ship to the Brazen-class Cyane post ship, which had more guns on the main deck, but 6pdrs instead of 9pdrs, and was the better sailor because it wasn't as overloaded until the War of 1812 when it carried 32 guns instead. I’ve pointed it out before, but I will again, but Chapelle got the wrong Cyane plans when he sent for them. The ones in the book are the older 18-gun Bittern-class sloop Cyane, not the 26-gun Brazen-class Cyane the Americans captured. Thinking it was the War of 1812 ship, he refitted the drawing with solid bulwarks like most ships of the era received. That’s the plan I have in the comparison I’m linking.
 
As far as the other ships go, Chapelle points out that everything in this era down to sloops tended to be shrunken versions of the 44s, at least above-water style-wise. You can see that comparing John Adams and the 20-gun ship. As long as you get the proportions and dimensions right, you can probably do a fair amount basing off of the 20-gun, Constitution/Constellation/Chesapeake, and the Philly, New York, Boston, and Essex.

Really interesting stuff. I wonder, looking at the table, if some of the difference might be in the construction of the hulls, since the other three examples are all ships of the line. Is there a 32 or 36-gun frigate from the 19th century you might be able to compare it to? That'd be pretty close in class to the 30-gun of 1764.

Whilst working my way through various contemporary treatises, some more legible than others, it occurred to me that for the application of the Archimedes Principle to be effective, it was necessary to be able to estimate the actual weight of the vessel before it was constructed.  I took a detour, as it were, to search out some examples where estimates of a ships weight were given.  The four provided below are just representative cases – there are others.  It is interesting to see how the relative proportion of each part of the ship has, surprisingly, remained rather consistent across classes and decades.  For example, in 1754 the hull was 44,6% of the total weight for a 30 gun frigate, and in 1847 (with much more accurate methods used) it was 54.3% of the total weight for a proposed 80 ship.
 

 
Sources:
Murray, Mungo. 1754. A Treatise on Ship-Building and Navigation. In Three Parts, Wherein the Theory, Practice, and Application of All the Necessary Instruments Are Perspicuously Handled. With the Construction and Use of a New Invented Shipwright’s Sector ... Also Tables of the Sun’s Declination, of Meridional Parts ... To Which Is Added by Way of Appendix, an English Abridgment of Another Treatise on Naval Architecture, Lately Published at Paris by M. Duhamel. London, Printed for D. Henry and R. Cave, for the author. https://archive.org/details/treatiseonshipbu00murr.
 
Rees, Abraham. 1819. Article on Shipbuilding in The Cyclopædia; Or, Universal Dictionary of Arts, Sciences, and Literature. Vol. 32. London : Longman, Hurst, Rees, Orme & Brown [etc.]. http://archive.org/details/cyclopaediaoruni32rees.
 
Edye, John. 1832. Calculations Relating to the Equipment, Displacement, Etc. of Ships and Vessels of War. Hodgson.
 
Read, Samuel, Henry Chatfield, and Augustin Francis Bullock Creuze. 1847. Reports on Naval Construction, 1842-44. W. Clowes.
 
 

Crosspost from the American Sailing Warships thread and not big history or anything, but the receiving ship Independence, a razee'd 74, in drydock in Mare Island, San Francisco 130 years ago today.
 

A hundred and thirty years ago today, USS Independence was in dry dock at Mare Island. She had been floated in on October 30th.
 

 
Nearly thirty years later, in 1915, she was burned and scrapped.
 

 
This is an interesting interior view of her during her time as a receiving ship in Mare Island. Note the truss of the large roof built over her, as well as the hammocks stored in the hammock rails and the three light guns in the gun ports. I believe they are Hotchkiss Revolving Cannons, probably in 37mm.
 

 
A nice color shot of her after they painted her light grey. She wasn’t the only receiving ship to be painted this way, USS Dale was as well.
 

 
A nice shot of her stern to round things out. This gives a good look at the molding on her stern and quarter galleries as well as the laurel wreath badges. It also illustrates an interesting quirk in the design. The quarter galleries aren’t level with the upper deck. Rather, they’re placed half a deck lower, which you can see compared to the eight (8!) stern chase ports. As I haven’t seen this on any of the other liners, and the sail plan of Independence shows them lined up with the decks, I believe it’s a result of the razee-ing process. They probably looked awkward so high up, especially compared to normal US frigates which carried them below the level of the spar deck.
 

 

A hundred and thirty years ago today, USS Independence was in dry dock at Mare Island. She had been floated in on October 30th.
 

 
Nearly thirty years later, in 1915, she was burned and scrapped.
 

 
This is an interesting interior view of her during her time as a receiving ship in Mare Island. Note the truss of the large roof built over her, as well as the hammocks stored in the hammock rails and the three light guns in the gun ports. I believe they are Hotchkiss Revolving Cannons, probably in 37mm.
 

 
A nice color shot of her after they painted her light grey. She wasn’t the only receiving ship to be painted this way, USS Dale was as well.
 

 
A nice shot of her stern to round things out. This gives a good look at the molding on her stern and quarter galleries as well as the laurel wreath badges. It also illustrates an interesting quirk in the design. The quarter galleries aren’t level with the upper deck. Rather, they’re placed half a deck lower, which you can see compared to the eight (8!) stern chase ports. As I haven’t seen this on any of the other liners, and the sail plan of Independence shows them lined up with the decks, I believe it’s a result of the razee-ing process. They probably looked awkward so high up, especially compared to normal US frigates which carried them below the level of the spar deck.
 

 

Crosspost from the American Sailing Warships thread and not big history or anything, but the receiving ship Independence, a razee'd 74, in drydock in Mare Island, San Francisco 130 years ago today.
 

A hundred and thirty years ago today, USS Independence was in dry dock at Mare Island. She had been floated in on October 30th.
 

 
Nearly thirty years later, in 1915, she was burned and scrapped.
 

 
This is an interesting interior view of her during her time as a receiving ship in Mare Island. Note the truss of the large roof built over her, as well as the hammocks stored in the hammock rails and the three light guns in the gun ports. I believe they are Hotchkiss Revolving Cannons, probably in 37mm.
 

 
A nice color shot of her after they painted her light grey. She wasn’t the only receiving ship to be painted this way, USS Dale was as well.
 

 
A nice shot of her stern to round things out. This gives a good look at the molding on her stern and quarter galleries as well as the laurel wreath badges. It also illustrates an interesting quirk in the design. The quarter galleries aren’t level with the upper deck. Rather, they’re placed half a deck lower, which you can see compared to the eight (8!) stern chase ports. As I haven’t seen this on any of the other liners, and the sail plan of Independence shows them lined up with the decks, I believe it’s a result of the razee-ing process. They probably looked awkward so high up, especially compared to normal US frigates which carried them below the level of the spar deck.
 

 

Crosspost from the American Sailing Warships thread and not big history or anything, but the receiving ship Independence, a razee'd 74, in drydock in Mare Island, San Francisco 130 years ago today.
 

Crosspost from the American Sailing Warships thread and not big history or anything, but the receiving ship Independence, a razee'd 74, in drydock in Mare Island, San Francisco 130 years ago today.
 

A hundred and thirty years ago today, USS Independence was in dry dock at Mare Island. She had been floated in on October 30th.
 

 
Nearly thirty years later, in 1915, she was burned and scrapped.
 

 
This is an interesting interior view of her during her time as a receiving ship in Mare Island. Note the truss of the large roof built over her, as well as the hammocks stored in the hammock rails and the three light guns in the gun ports. I believe they are Hotchkiss Revolving Cannons, probably in 37mm.
 

 
A nice color shot of her after they painted her light grey. She wasn’t the only receiving ship to be painted this way, USS Dale was as well.
 

 
A nice shot of her stern to round things out. This gives a good look at the molding on her stern and quarter galleries as well as the laurel wreath badges. It also illustrates an interesting quirk in the design. The quarter galleries aren’t level with the upper deck. Rather, they’re placed half a deck lower, which you can see compared to the eight (8!) stern chase ports. As I haven’t seen this on any of the other liners, and the sail plan of Independence shows them lined up with the decks, I believe it’s a result of the razee-ing process. They probably looked awkward so high up, especially compared to normal US frigates which carried them below the level of the spar deck.
 

 

Crosspost from the American Sailing Warships thread and not big history or anything, but the receiving ship Independence, a razee'd 74, in drydock in Mare Island, San Francisco 130 years ago today.
 

A hundred and thirty years ago today, USS Independence was in dry dock at Mare Island. She had been floated in on October 30th.
 

 
Nearly thirty years later, in 1915, she was burned and scrapped.
 

 
This is an interesting interior view of her during her time as a receiving ship in Mare Island. Note the truss of the large roof built over her, as well as the hammocks stored in the hammock rails and the three light guns in the gun ports. I believe they are Hotchkiss Revolving Cannons, probably in 37mm.
 

 
A nice color shot of her after they painted her light grey. She wasn’t the only receiving ship to be painted this way, USS Dale was as well.
 

 
A nice shot of her stern to round things out. This gives a good look at the molding on her stern and quarter galleries as well as the laurel wreath badges. It also illustrates an interesting quirk in the design. The quarter galleries aren’t level with the upper deck. Rather, they’re placed half a deck lower, which you can see compared to the eight (8!) stern chase ports. As I haven’t seen this on any of the other liners, and the sail plan of Independence shows them lined up with the decks, I believe it’s a result of the razee-ing process. They probably looked awkward so high up, especially compared to normal US frigates which carried them below the level of the spar deck.