Hubac's Historian

Hi EJ,
 
I think you are referring to the "round-up" of the stern. Most commercial models of square-tuck sterned models present the transom as being flat, but this was not the case in actual practice.  There is, as you note, an upward camber of the transom wale (beneath the chase ports) that follows the arc of the stern counter, as well as the galleries above it.  However, there should also be a corresponding outward arc of the transom, from the ship sides toward the sternpost.  This arc in two planes (upward and outward) carries up and past the stern counter into the fashion pieces.  All of the Tanneron models display this characteristic (see stern pics of L'Agreable and Le Brilliant on the first page of my build log), and many good pictures of the Vasa's transom and upper stern display this feature to good advantage.
 
On one of the arsenal sites I found this proposed framing for SR's stern:

Below the stern counter, this plan correctly shows the framing for the round-up of the transom, however, it seems to show the upper framing of the fashion pieces as being flat, which is incorrect.  The dual arc of the transom timber, above the stern post, is what provides a footing and gives shape to the coved supports to the fashion timbers.  Round-up should be continued into the upper stern, but here it is not.
 
The other interesting feature of this framing diagram - for those who are interested in developing plans for a scratch-build of SR - is that it shows the correct profile of a pre-1673 stern, where the widest point of the stern is at the middle deck level, as opposed to the lower deck level on the Tanneron model of SR (which is actually a model of the second SR, ex Foudroyant of 1693).
 
My only other contention about this framing for the first SR (1669-1692), is that the framing of the stern counter should close-in this lowest stern balcony, which shouldn't be a balcony at all.  Otherwise, I quite like the shape of the plan and will tweak it for a future scratch-build.  I think the cyma curve line of the tafferal is very well drawn, here.

On a closer look, it seems that I may have been wrong about this framing diagram; it does seem to show a diminishing taper (upwards) of the round-up into the fashion pieces.

Progress continues on the gun port framing. 3 hours of build time tonight have left me with 3 ports left to go on the starboard side. Should have them done tomorrow and then more filler and sanding. There are lots of imperfections but the filler and the sanding should be light at this point so no big stress there. I will have pictures later this week when there is something to actually see.
 
To all my S.R. scholars, I am in need of guidance. On the stern at the aft gun ports, does the transom remain flat and the just the balcony supports curve or does the transom follow the curve of the balcony supports. I have seen it both ways and am wondering if anyone knows how this should look. Below are pictures of the area in question. On the drawing the transom appears to be flat and just the supports curve. On the model, and I have seen this on a few of them, the transom itself takes on the same curve as the supports. I am quickly approaching a point where I need to make the decision on how to frame and plank this area so any input would be greatly appreciated.

On this model it shows the transom curving with the balcony supports.

Hello Everyone,    This post should be about progress that I'm making but alas I've taken another step backwards and am now recovering from my earlier errors,
 
You will recall that on my second and third transom deck levels I used fill in pieces to make up gaps between the inner and edge castings and that the sizing fault was uniform.  I said that as long as it looked ok I could live with it, well I'm afraid that I now can't. True to form the top tier was again too wide and this time there was no acceptable way of muddling through as this deck was open and in full view. To fit the top deck on the upper windows and not have there top edges showing it had to be so wide that the curve needed for it to line up with the rear transom facia looked  so obviously wrong that something had to be done. I left it for a bit and had a beer not wanting to face the only choice I had and that was to start pulling the transom apart and now knowing how it should look
re-build it correctly.
 
I've shown pictures of the top deck how it would end up if I didn't redo it, the red dots show the size and shape that it should be, the other picture shows my deck against the one supplied in the kit, you can see the difference.
 
So that I didn't chicken out I've just torn off the complete last level of the transom. Oh the joys of modelling.
 
 
Ken
 

Welcome. It's not perfect but it works well for some images. If that doesn't work, you can try the Warp option under Transform, it's the most powerful but as with everything in computers that gets that label, that also means it's hard to control. You have four moveable control points on the corners, plus they each have two bezier control points that can be also be used to stretch the outer edges of your selection. Then you can also click anywhere within the selected area and click and drag to move the contents around and other areas with get squished or stretched to compensate.
 
One trick with all of these (that really need a "strength" setting) to attenuate the effects is to select an area bigger than that you want to alter. So if you have a drawing you can increase the size of the canvas and then select an area bigger than the drawing itself and that will make the effects of dragging transform control points less dramatic.

Hello Everyone.    Again thanks for your likes.   Here's the latest.
 
 
I have now made, planked and fitted the next transom deck. As I said I cut away the original deck so that I could fit a one piece version that would be much easier. This deck when fitted was about 3mm lower than the original at the front, but because of the upward slant of the galleries it fits perfectly in line at its rear with the transom facia's deck position. I now realise that The original deck would have been wrong as its incline was shallower than the gallery decks and would not have fitted at both the forward or rear part at the same time.
 
At Pete's suggestion I checked that the cast figures at the rear edge of the transom would fit as it would be easier to make any corrections at this stage. I hadn't given any thought to this but as luck would have it all is ok.
 
I have shown the pieces that make up the next level of the gallery. They are now glazed and shaped ready for painting.
 
 
Ken
 
 

9001.doc

Hello Everyone,         Here is the latest update.
 
I've shown a photo of the next pieces of castings that need to be assembled and fitted into place, they were painted,shaped and ready to go. Mark did point out that this was a difficult part of the build and was tricky to get right, I now know what he meant. I had already built up the middle inner section of windows and the side doors, these were in their exact position, the next step was the windows that linked up with the outer cabin windows and the hand rail-balustrade. Each of these needed setting at an angle so that they would not only be in the correct position but that their edges perfectly aligned with each other at the same time. I found that no matter what I did even after bending to shape I could only get them either to align or set them looking ok in the correct position but not both together.
 
I decided rather than follow the accepted way I would make it easier for myself and fit the outer windows and balustrade in as correct position that I could according to the plan without regard to it aligning with the inner window, this after all is what will mostly be visible. I then fitted the inner cabin window, again without regard to it making contact with the outer windows, but in a position that looked ok, this left a gap of between 2mm-4mm. I made up a piece and glued it into the gap, when painted it looked as if it should be there. I'm pleased with the result and glad that I didn't let myself get frustrated trying to get it absolutely correct. Next I will be making the deck to fit above these cabins.
 
 
Ken
 
 

Hi Pete, Thanks for that.  I was quite surprised with those stantions they were not what they first appeared to be. Initially I thought that they were just random serrations along their length but on closer inspection I saw that they had a front and rear and the pattern along the length was a regular repeat. The pieces also had notches at regular intervals which made it easy to break them off at the correct size leaving about .5mm each end to file the correct angle, when fitted the stanchion patterns lined up uniformly. I thought that what at first looked simple was really quite well thought out by Euromodel.
 
Ken

Hello Everyone,      Thanks for all the thumbs up on my build so far.
 
Anton, thanks for your comments, at least I'm not having to make all my own decorative castings like you. I'm following your build and really enjoying the effort that your putting in, great work.
 
Mark, thanks for your encouragement, I appreciate your comments.
 
As I said, I found the first part of the gallery quite a challenge. I knew what I wanted to do but it was my first foray into working with cast parts and I was getting into difficulties trying to bend it in different planes, I would get one area right and it would then cause another area to not fit, a frustrating day but a learning curve.
 
I approached the next level which is more difficult with a different mindset, with the experience I'd gained I was more confident, more relaxed about it, no trying for quick results. I was also annoyed with myself for not photographing my efforts, so at least for the rest of the transom I will try and photograph everything that I do bit by bit, warts and all. I hope that there won't be too many boring pictures.
 
First I shaped the stern so that the facia would sit at the correct angle and have the right contact with the decks,   Photo.
 
I then had second thoughts, The way that I made and fitted the deck above the lower part worked very well so I decided to do the same for this deck. I cut off the original deck flush with the rear bulkhead. I'll cut my deck out in one piece and use the supplied deck side pieces as a guide for the edge curve.    Photo
 
I painted and glazed the inner windows and side doors, I only glazed the others, I'll paint them after shaping, ( lesson learned ). I've shown a photo of the parts needed for this section of gallery
 
After careful adjusting I set in place the inner windows and side doors, Again I used canopy glue with small dots of cyno to hold it together whilst drying.    Photo.
 
Next I cleaned up and bent to shape the side railings. The solution that I came up with for bending the cast parts was to use the shaft of a large soldering iron clamped in a vice, this gave enough heat without melting to easily bend these castings, (  another lesson learnt ).    Photo
 
Next was to make up the balustrades. Euromodel supplied a cast serrated strip which on first appearance looked a bit naff and I was disappointed,   Photo.  However not having anything else at hand to substitute it I continued, I cut the pieces to size, this was very fiddly, as they were to be glued in with cyno they needed to be filed to an exact fit. Once I started to fit them I changed my mind about how good they were and I was glad that I hadn't substituted them, at this scale I don't think that they could be improved on without a great effort or cost.   Photo
 
I painted the rails and the picture shows them just resting in place. A good session.
 
Ken
 
 

Looks great,Ken - you are moving at a much faster pace than I did. Those windows are the easier part - the next level gets a little more tricky. All the pieces at the next level need to sit just right for everything to fit together. Pay attention to the angle of the plywood side entry arches - they will determine the angle of the recessed windows. you may notice the recessed window panels are arched more than the deck they sit on,but when angled back at the top to rest against the ply arches they should sit with little or no gap across the bottom.
 
Mark

I was just looking at the comparison photos of SR to Couronne - JeezUS!  That is a huge model!

I'm having a little Powers myself, right about now.

Stay strong and stay thirsty, my friend!

After giving it a little more thought, I wonder whether the issue of the tapering windows isn't deliberate.  Perhaps the windows are intended to taper taller, as theyprogress aft with the increasing sheer of the stern.  That doesn't offer any insight into the dolphins, nor the partially obstructed ports, but the ports won't be an issue on my build and I will trace the dolphins as they are.

Dan, to answer your question as to whether the decks of the QGs would really be so steep, as to present problems for the Admiral and the Captain:  well, you know the old saying about sxxt flowing downhill!
 
To be honest, your perceptive eye has brought light to an interesting conversation about what the artist's actual perspective may have been.  Certainly, the issues of the partially covered gun ports, and the varied dolphins, and the tapering lower gallery windows would all seem to be victims of parallax.  That makes sense.  However, the overwhelming perspective, as you mention, is that of being athwartship.  And that is not consistent with parallax.
 
I was aware that the lower gallery ports tapered in size.  My thought was that I would have to work on my tracing of the QG from the top down, and establish parallel guides for the main deck open-walk railing, as well as, the middle deck windows beneath them.  The distortion tool you are using here, on the other hand, is a really fascinating thing.  I'll have to see whether GIMP has something like that in its arsenal because I agree that perspective of the QGs can be improved a bit, as the relate to the sheer of the Heller kit.
 
I suspect, though, that these variances are merely the result of un-intended artistic inaccuracies.  Although our eye can perceive that the windows taper, for example, the actual difference in window height is really quite small, and I think the natural product of a handmade portrait.  Nevertheless, it is still something that needs to be corrected because, in three-dimensions, that discrepancy will really become apparent.
 
I am pretty locked in to the kit sheer-line, however, this is another of the kit's details that I really like;  it's a nice, gentle curve.  The aspect of the Heller kit that bothered me, in this area, was the absence of the ornamental sheer cap dolphin because it appeared too stepped and without transition. 

I even did not see that button.....
 
Thanks vossiewulf.
 
 

 
 

One is click on the smiley face at the top of the message-typing interface and then click on whichever one you want.
 
Most of them can just be typed. Colon : followed by ) =
Semi colon ; followed by ) =
 

Hello vossiewulf,
My profile is the stern of La Reine, not le Soleil Royal !
Both were near sister-ships indeed, but you'll find lots of différences between them.
 
Have a nice day.
 
(still don't know how to add smileys)
 

Distort is one of the transform modes in Photoshop but the one Dan should have used, and you should look for in GIMP, is Perspective. That mode is designed to do exactly what you're trying to do here.
 
I also like the dueling SR stern drawings with HH and Cedric's profile images 
 

Hey Dan,
 
Sometimes I take for granted that I can just see the Michelangelo at our meetings, but I've really enjoyed reading through this log, so far.  There have been a number of ingenious solutions to vexing problems.  I'll be following along.  She's really shaping up beautifully, Dan!

After giving it a little more thought, I wonder whether the issue of the tapering windows isn't deliberate.  Perhaps the windows are intended to taper taller, as theyprogress aft with the increasing sheer of the stern.  That doesn't offer any insight into the dolphins, nor the partially obstructed ports, but the ports won't be an issue on my build and I will trace the dolphins as they are.

Dan, to answer your question as to whether the decks of the QGs would really be so steep, as to present problems for the Admiral and the Captain:  well, you know the old saying about sxxt flowing downhill!
 
To be honest, your perceptive eye has brought light to an interesting conversation about what the artist's actual perspective may have been.  Certainly, the issues of the partially covered gun ports, and the varied dolphins, and the tapering lower gallery windows would all seem to be victims of parallax.  That makes sense.  However, the overwhelming perspective, as you mention, is that of being athwartship.  And that is not consistent with parallax.
 
I was aware that the lower gallery ports tapered in size.  My thought was that I would have to work on my tracing of the QG from the top down, and establish parallel guides for the main deck open-walk railing, as well as, the middle deck windows beneath them.  The distortion tool you are using here, on the other hand, is a really fascinating thing.  I'll have to see whether GIMP has something like that in its arsenal because I agree that perspective of the QGs can be improved a bit, as the relate to the sheer of the Heller kit.
 
I suspect, though, that these variances are merely the result of un-intended artistic inaccuracies.  Although our eye can perceive that the windows taper, for example, the actual difference in window height is really quite small, and I think the natural product of a handmade portrait.  Nevertheless, it is still something that needs to be corrected because, in three-dimensions, that discrepancy will really become apparent.
 
I am pretty locked in to the kit sheer-line, however, this is another of the kit's details that I really like;  it's a nice, gentle curve.  The aspect of the Heller kit that bothered me, in this area, was the absence of the ornamental sheer cap dolphin because it appeared too stepped and without transition. 

Yes, I will not be modifying the sheer of the wales, nor the upper bulwarks.  I will, however, make small adjustments to my tracings of the quarter galleries.  And I may, yet, remove that upper most round port, and/or pierce two octagonal ports.  Not sure about all of that, as yet, but I will figure it out.  My inclination, though, is to leave the round port, arm it with a gun, and add both octagonal ports, un-armed.  My reasoning is that adding the octagonal ports, allows for greater fidelity to the Berain drawing, while keeping the round port maintains my armament at 110 guns.  A compromise.

Cedric, do you have that Boudriot illustration handy?  Can you share that digitally? I would love to see that.

That would be excellent, Cedric, if you don't mind doing that.  Also, what you are suggesting about windows in the officers' quarters makes sense.  That seems quite plausible to me.  Perhaps Michel or Neko will weigh in, at some point.  If they are officers' quarters, then some attempt at glazing should be made, no?