hamilton

Thanks very much Jaager - and sorry for being ambiguous earlier.
hamilton

Hello all:
 
I am a relatively new wooden ship builder (and an experienced plastic model builder). 
 
Currently working on MSY's 18thC Longboat and Victory Models' HM Bomb Vessel Granado. 
 
looking forward to connecting with builders in Canada as well as anyone who has built - or is building - Granado. 

From the above, I would bolt the keelson to every timber.   With a bolt already in every other timber a pattern  that avoids having the keelson bolts  and existing timber bolts on different tracks is needed.   A "Z"  with the hole 4"  in from the edge of the keelson and since the floors are sided 11"  ( 11/3= 3 2/3") about 3.5" in from the edge of the floor.  The next timber would be a mirror.  The floor bolts having the same pattern - staggered by one timber - but since it not visible, the floor to keel bolts can be skipped.

Thanks Jaager and David - and sorry Jaager for the ambiguity - I did not have that info on hand - it is the Echo of 1781 - but I suppose that's immaterial now!
hamilton

1.  You do not make it easy when not identifying the class and year of Echo.
2.  If you are at all serious about 18th C. RN vessels and aim at authenticity you should own a copy of Yedlinsky.
 
18 gun sloop of war:
Floor timber   :      Every other floor timber to be bolted through the main keel  - bolt dia. = 1"
Keelson          :      To be square  =  12" x 12"
                             exclusive of what is let down between the floors which may be = 7/8"
                             Scarphs in length   =  4' 6"
                             The keelson bolts should be driven through and carefully clenched on the underside of the main keel dia.  = 1"
                             Excepting where the rabbet for the plank is taken out in the middle.  There, they come through and clench on the underside of the keel that is coaked to the  main keel.

Another source is, of course, TFFM (The Swan Class Sloops 1767-1780, The Fully Framed Model, SeaWatchBooks LLC.)

A final update - deadflat 1 has now also been raised, after notching it out on the aft face for the sweep port sills. Here are a couple of shots to round out the set....moving on to frame set 1 next....think I will continue to do these in pairs as long as that continues to make sense....
hamilton

So I may have been pre-emptive, but I decided to raise the deadflat frame on the keel today. Doing so took quite a bit of finessing and was definitely aided by the deadflat 1 frame when it came to final positioning.
 
The whole endeavour was slowed by the fact that I broke not one but both of the frames while adding the trunnels, and had to reset the futtocks and in one case re-make one of the chocks - which I did using the method suggested by Greg which worked way better for fit - still a bit of adjusting to do, but not as much as when I was just cutting them from the patterns on the frame drawings....
 
For mounting, the frame was merely glued to the keel assembly with PVA, which I will let cure for 24 hours before securing the seating with a length of brass rod - this will be invisible under the keelson, so I'm not going to treat it in any way, just use it for structural support.
 
I lined up the frame along the reference lines on the lateral framing squares and clamped these in place. I then clamped the forward square along the centre line (I etched a centre line on the acrylic base and vertical support for certainty)and then clamped the frame to the aft framing square.
 
Once this was done, I inserted some 2mm spacers (scrap basswood) between the two frames and used a length of 2mm basswood for a bracing piece at the top. This is only glued to the aft edge of the deadflat frame but clamped between the 2 frames to secure it. I was quite please not only with the seating of the frame, but with the alignment of the outside edges of these first two frames. I will be adding these horizontal braces to the tops of the frames as I go for structural support and to ensure symmetry and will saw the centre portions flush and sand down the remaining material flush with the frames when I fair the cross-section for planking. The bracing pieces you see further down the frame are not glued and will be removed once the glue is set and I'm ready to install deadflat 1, which I will do after completing frame 1 forward.
 
Any comments, tips or feedback on this process are always appreciated. Thanks and bye for now
hamilton 

One last update for today. I used the markings on the tape strips attached to the right angle plates to mark out the lines on the front face of the deadflat frame. I then cut a tick strip and marked the lines on it from the profile drawing and checked against the marks on the frame. With a very small adjustment on the starboard side, the markings were nice, even & symmetrical. I then unclamped the frame and extended these marks across the face of the frame using a straight edge, and then extended the lines around the frame, so each line is marked out on all sides.
 
I still need to add trunnels to the futtock joints, which should be interesting - the joints are such a tender spot that I'm not sure how to approach it in terms of supporting the frame so it doesn't break under even the controllable pressure of hand drilling....My current idea is to put the frame in my bench vice so the outside edge of the frame is just above the jaws and going for it from there....I have some cast-off futtocks that i made while practicing my scroll saw work so I might just glue up a couple of those just to see how it feels and how it goes....I guess I'm not in any rush!
hamilton

A final update - deadflat 1 has now also been raised, after notching it out on the aft face for the sweep port sills. Here are a couple of shots to round out the set....moving on to frame set 1 next....think I will continue to do these in pairs as long as that continues to make sense....
hamilton

A final update - deadflat 1 has now also been raised, after notching it out on the aft face for the sweep port sills. Here are a couple of shots to round out the set....moving on to frame set 1 next....think I will continue to do these in pairs as long as that continues to make sense....
hamilton

So I may have been pre-emptive, but I decided to raise the deadflat frame on the keel today. Doing so took quite a bit of finessing and was definitely aided by the deadflat 1 frame when it came to final positioning.
 
The whole endeavour was slowed by the fact that I broke not one but both of the frames while adding the trunnels, and had to reset the futtocks and in one case re-make one of the chocks - which I did using the method suggested by Greg which worked way better for fit - still a bit of adjusting to do, but not as much as when I was just cutting them from the patterns on the frame drawings....
 
For mounting, the frame was merely glued to the keel assembly with PVA, which I will let cure for 24 hours before securing the seating with a length of brass rod - this will be invisible under the keelson, so I'm not going to treat it in any way, just use it for structural support.
 
I lined up the frame along the reference lines on the lateral framing squares and clamped these in place. I then clamped the forward square along the centre line (I etched a centre line on the acrylic base and vertical support for certainty)and then clamped the frame to the aft framing square.
 
Once this was done, I inserted some 2mm spacers (scrap basswood) between the two frames and used a length of 2mm basswood for a bracing piece at the top. This is only glued to the aft edge of the deadflat frame but clamped between the 2 frames to secure it. I was quite please not only with the seating of the frame, but with the alignment of the outside edges of these first two frames. I will be adding these horizontal braces to the tops of the frames as I go for structural support and to ensure symmetry and will saw the centre portions flush and sand down the remaining material flush with the frames when I fair the cross-section for planking. The bracing pieces you see further down the frame are not glued and will be removed once the glue is set and I'm ready to install deadflat 1, which I will do after completing frame 1 forward.
 
Any comments, tips or feedback on this process are always appreciated. Thanks and bye for now
hamilton 

Yes, Ross, but the amortization case is relative to cash flow, so the logic might not work for everyone - if I don't have $500 to drop on a model kit, then it doesn't matter how long it takes me to build it. As you might be able to tell from my signature, I clearly have a hard time following what I call "logic" myself! In any case, not knowing exactly the financial situation of other modellers, I hesitate to make recommendations based on what I might be able to afford. Personally, I applaud the efforts of designers like Chuck and CAF who offer larger, more expensive builds in chapter form - this immediately makes the economic calculus of this hobby a little easier to work for more potential modellers and is a very welcome business innovation in the current economic climate.
 
Your Diana looks great, by the way!
hamilton

Lots of good advice here - I'll chime in with an extension on Frank's advice above - this is not a cheap hobby and tools are as important as kits - given what you say about yourself above, I imagine you've got some decent tools - but modelling tools can get quite specialised on the tool front - your full sized table saw is a little too much for the kinds of jobs a miniature table saw gets put to in ship modelling, for example, and it's doubtful that you'll need to invest in a micro-lathe to turn your own canons or rail stanchions until you get right into the weeds of the craft. I built my first kit with little more than a dremel tool, some #10 and #11 exacto blades, a set of small stainless steel tweezers, a pin vice with a set of micro drill bits, a little saw and a ball peen hammer - all purchased on the cheap to begin with and then replaced with better quality stuff as I discovered that this is something I like doing and want to keep doing and learning about. With some of the beginner kits from Model Shipways (which I would recommend as first attempt) that's all you need and since the beginner kits are usually quite affordable you're not breaking the bank just to see if you're into the hobby or not. 
 
It's tempting to go for a fully rigged ship of the line or a big 19th century clipper, since they look so cool, especially in the hands of some the pros on here. But they will very rapidly overwhelm if you don't first develop a general feel for the craft and work your way up - starting small and joining this forum are two decisions you won't regret!
hamilton

A final update - deadflat 1 has now also been raised, after notching it out on the aft face for the sweep port sills. Here are a couple of shots to round out the set....moving on to frame set 1 next....think I will continue to do these in pairs as long as that continues to make sense....
hamilton

A final update - deadflat 1 has now also been raised, after notching it out on the aft face for the sweep port sills. Here are a couple of shots to round out the set....moving on to frame set 1 next....think I will continue to do these in pairs as long as that continues to make sense....
hamilton

So I may have been pre-emptive, but I decided to raise the deadflat frame on the keel today. Doing so took quite a bit of finessing and was definitely aided by the deadflat 1 frame when it came to final positioning.
 
The whole endeavour was slowed by the fact that I broke not one but both of the frames while adding the trunnels, and had to reset the futtocks and in one case re-make one of the chocks - which I did using the method suggested by Greg which worked way better for fit - still a bit of adjusting to do, but not as much as when I was just cutting them from the patterns on the frame drawings....
 
For mounting, the frame was merely glued to the keel assembly with PVA, which I will let cure for 24 hours before securing the seating with a length of brass rod - this will be invisible under the keelson, so I'm not going to treat it in any way, just use it for structural support.
 
I lined up the frame along the reference lines on the lateral framing squares and clamped these in place. I then clamped the forward square along the centre line (I etched a centre line on the acrylic base and vertical support for certainty)and then clamped the frame to the aft framing square.
 
Once this was done, I inserted some 2mm spacers (scrap basswood) between the two frames and used a length of 2mm basswood for a bracing piece at the top. This is only glued to the aft edge of the deadflat frame but clamped between the 2 frames to secure it. I was quite please not only with the seating of the frame, but with the alignment of the outside edges of these first two frames. I will be adding these horizontal braces to the tops of the frames as I go for structural support and to ensure symmetry and will saw the centre portions flush and sand down the remaining material flush with the frames when I fair the cross-section for planking. The bracing pieces you see further down the frame are not glued and will be removed once the glue is set and I'm ready to install deadflat 1, which I will do after completing frame 1 forward.
 
Any comments, tips or feedback on this process are always appreciated. Thanks and bye for now
hamilton 

So I may have been pre-emptive, but I decided to raise the deadflat frame on the keel today. Doing so took quite a bit of finessing and was definitely aided by the deadflat 1 frame when it came to final positioning.
 
The whole endeavour was slowed by the fact that I broke not one but both of the frames while adding the trunnels, and had to reset the futtocks and in one case re-make one of the chocks - which I did using the method suggested by Greg which worked way better for fit - still a bit of adjusting to do, but not as much as when I was just cutting them from the patterns on the frame drawings....
 
For mounting, the frame was merely glued to the keel assembly with PVA, which I will let cure for 24 hours before securing the seating with a length of brass rod - this will be invisible under the keelson, so I'm not going to treat it in any way, just use it for structural support.
 
I lined up the frame along the reference lines on the lateral framing squares and clamped these in place. I then clamped the forward square along the centre line (I etched a centre line on the acrylic base and vertical support for certainty)and then clamped the frame to the aft framing square.
 
Once this was done, I inserted some 2mm spacers (scrap basswood) between the two frames and used a length of 2mm basswood for a bracing piece at the top. This is only glued to the aft edge of the deadflat frame but clamped between the 2 frames to secure it. I was quite please not only with the seating of the frame, but with the alignment of the outside edges of these first two frames. I will be adding these horizontal braces to the tops of the frames as I go for structural support and to ensure symmetry and will saw the centre portions flush and sand down the remaining material flush with the frames when I fair the cross-section for planking. The bracing pieces you see further down the frame are not glued and will be removed once the glue is set and I'm ready to install deadflat 1, which I will do after completing frame 1 forward.
 
Any comments, tips or feedback on this process are always appreciated. Thanks and bye for now
hamilton 

So I may have been pre-emptive, but I decided to raise the deadflat frame on the keel today. Doing so took quite a bit of finessing and was definitely aided by the deadflat 1 frame when it came to final positioning.
 
The whole endeavour was slowed by the fact that I broke not one but both of the frames while adding the trunnels, and had to reset the futtocks and in one case re-make one of the chocks - which I did using the method suggested by Greg which worked way better for fit - still a bit of adjusting to do, but not as much as when I was just cutting them from the patterns on the frame drawings....
 
For mounting, the frame was merely glued to the keel assembly with PVA, which I will let cure for 24 hours before securing the seating with a length of brass rod - this will be invisible under the keelson, so I'm not going to treat it in any way, just use it for structural support.
 
I lined up the frame along the reference lines on the lateral framing squares and clamped these in place. I then clamped the forward square along the centre line (I etched a centre line on the acrylic base and vertical support for certainty)and then clamped the frame to the aft framing square.
 
Once this was done, I inserted some 2mm spacers (scrap basswood) between the two frames and used a length of 2mm basswood for a bracing piece at the top. This is only glued to the aft edge of the deadflat frame but clamped between the 2 frames to secure it. I was quite please not only with the seating of the frame, but with the alignment of the outside edges of these first two frames. I will be adding these horizontal braces to the tops of the frames as I go for structural support and to ensure symmetry and will saw the centre portions flush and sand down the remaining material flush with the frames when I fair the cross-section for planking. The bracing pieces you see further down the frame are not glued and will be removed once the glue is set and I'm ready to install deadflat 1, which I will do after completing frame 1 forward.
 
Any comments, tips or feedback on this process are always appreciated. Thanks and bye for now
hamilton 

So I may have been pre-emptive, but I decided to raise the deadflat frame on the keel today. Doing so took quite a bit of finessing and was definitely aided by the deadflat 1 frame when it came to final positioning.
 
The whole endeavour was slowed by the fact that I broke not one but both of the frames while adding the trunnels, and had to reset the futtocks and in one case re-make one of the chocks - which I did using the method suggested by Greg which worked way better for fit - still a bit of adjusting to do, but not as much as when I was just cutting them from the patterns on the frame drawings....
 
For mounting, the frame was merely glued to the keel assembly with PVA, which I will let cure for 24 hours before securing the seating with a length of brass rod - this will be invisible under the keelson, so I'm not going to treat it in any way, just use it for structural support.
 
I lined up the frame along the reference lines on the lateral framing squares and clamped these in place. I then clamped the forward square along the centre line (I etched a centre line on the acrylic base and vertical support for certainty)and then clamped the frame to the aft framing square.
 
Once this was done, I inserted some 2mm spacers (scrap basswood) between the two frames and used a length of 2mm basswood for a bracing piece at the top. This is only glued to the aft edge of the deadflat frame but clamped between the 2 frames to secure it. I was quite please not only with the seating of the frame, but with the alignment of the outside edges of these first two frames. I will be adding these horizontal braces to the tops of the frames as I go for structural support and to ensure symmetry and will saw the centre portions flush and sand down the remaining material flush with the frames when I fair the cross-section for planking. The bracing pieces you see further down the frame are not glued and will be removed once the glue is set and I'm ready to install deadflat 1, which I will do after completing frame 1 forward.
 
Any comments, tips or feedback on this process are always appreciated. Thanks and bye for now
hamilton 

So I may have been pre-emptive, but I decided to raise the deadflat frame on the keel today. Doing so took quite a bit of finessing and was definitely aided by the deadflat 1 frame when it came to final positioning.
 
The whole endeavour was slowed by the fact that I broke not one but both of the frames while adding the trunnels, and had to reset the futtocks and in one case re-make one of the chocks - which I did using the method suggested by Greg which worked way better for fit - still a bit of adjusting to do, but not as much as when I was just cutting them from the patterns on the frame drawings....
 
For mounting, the frame was merely glued to the keel assembly with PVA, which I will let cure for 24 hours before securing the seating with a length of brass rod - this will be invisible under the keelson, so I'm not going to treat it in any way, just use it for structural support.
 
I lined up the frame along the reference lines on the lateral framing squares and clamped these in place. I then clamped the forward square along the centre line (I etched a centre line on the acrylic base and vertical support for certainty)and then clamped the frame to the aft framing square.
 
Once this was done, I inserted some 2mm spacers (scrap basswood) between the two frames and used a length of 2mm basswood for a bracing piece at the top. This is only glued to the aft edge of the deadflat frame but clamped between the 2 frames to secure it. I was quite please not only with the seating of the frame, but with the alignment of the outside edges of these first two frames. I will be adding these horizontal braces to the tops of the frames as I go for structural support and to ensure symmetry and will saw the centre portions flush and sand down the remaining material flush with the frames when I fair the cross-section for planking. The bracing pieces you see further down the frame are not glued and will be removed once the glue is set and I'm ready to install deadflat 1, which I will do after completing frame 1 forward.
 
Any comments, tips or feedback on this process are always appreciated. Thanks and bye for now
hamilton 

One last update for today. I used the markings on the tape strips attached to the right angle plates to mark out the lines on the front face of the deadflat frame. I then cut a tick strip and marked the lines on it from the profile drawing and checked against the marks on the frame. With a very small adjustment on the starboard side, the markings were nice, even & symmetrical. I then unclamped the frame and extended these marks across the face of the frame using a straight edge, and then extended the lines around the frame, so each line is marked out on all sides.
 
I still need to add trunnels to the futtock joints, which should be interesting - the joints are such a tender spot that I'm not sure how to approach it in terms of supporting the frame so it doesn't break under even the controllable pressure of hand drilling....My current idea is to put the frame in my bench vice so the outside edge of the frame is just above the jaws and going for it from there....I have some cast-off futtocks that i made while practicing my scroll saw work so I might just glue up a couple of those just to see how it feels and how it goes....I guess I'm not in any rush!
hamilton

One last update for today. I used the markings on the tape strips attached to the right angle plates to mark out the lines on the front face of the deadflat frame. I then cut a tick strip and marked the lines on it from the profile drawing and checked against the marks on the frame. With a very small adjustment on the starboard side, the markings were nice, even & symmetrical. I then unclamped the frame and extended these marks across the face of the frame using a straight edge, and then extended the lines around the frame, so each line is marked out on all sides.
 
I still need to add trunnels to the futtock joints, which should be interesting - the joints are such a tender spot that I'm not sure how to approach it in terms of supporting the frame so it doesn't break under even the controllable pressure of hand drilling....My current idea is to put the frame in my bench vice so the outside edge of the frame is just above the jaws and going for it from there....I have some cast-off futtocks that i made while practicing my scroll saw work so I might just glue up a couple of those just to see how it feels and how it goes....I guess I'm not in any rush!
hamilton

One last update for today. I used the markings on the tape strips attached to the right angle plates to mark out the lines on the front face of the deadflat frame. I then cut a tick strip and marked the lines on it from the profile drawing and checked against the marks on the frame. With a very small adjustment on the starboard side, the markings were nice, even & symmetrical. I then unclamped the frame and extended these marks across the face of the frame using a straight edge, and then extended the lines around the frame, so each line is marked out on all sides.
 
I still need to add trunnels to the futtock joints, which should be interesting - the joints are such a tender spot that I'm not sure how to approach it in terms of supporting the frame so it doesn't break under even the controllable pressure of hand drilling....My current idea is to put the frame in my bench vice so the outside edge of the frame is just above the jaws and going for it from there....I have some cast-off futtocks that i made while practicing my scroll saw work so I might just glue up a couple of those just to see how it feels and how it goes....I guess I'm not in any rush!
hamilton

One last update for today. I used the markings on the tape strips attached to the right angle plates to mark out the lines on the front face of the deadflat frame. I then cut a tick strip and marked the lines on it from the profile drawing and checked against the marks on the frame. With a very small adjustment on the starboard side, the markings were nice, even & symmetrical. I then unclamped the frame and extended these marks across the face of the frame using a straight edge, and then extended the lines around the frame, so each line is marked out on all sides.
 
I still need to add trunnels to the futtock joints, which should be interesting - the joints are such a tender spot that I'm not sure how to approach it in terms of supporting the frame so it doesn't break under even the controllable pressure of hand drilling....My current idea is to put the frame in my bench vice so the outside edge of the frame is just above the jaws and going for it from there....I have some cast-off futtocks that i made while practicing my scroll saw work so I might just glue up a couple of those just to see how it feels and how it goes....I guess I'm not in any rush!
hamilton