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Jaager

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  1. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from Canute in Band Saw Recommendations   
    The foot print is not as large as would be guessed.   Not that much more than a 9" or 10" bench top - considering that they either stay occupying valuable bench space or have to be parked - and are not light weight or easy to lift.  The 14" saws are on wheels so that they can be moved into an open enough area to allow for lumber excursion.  One factor that you really want - if there is any way to get it - is to have a 220 V  outlet and a motor that is rated for that power.  
     
    Blacksburg may be a location with access to old Apple trees -  a species that is as good as can be used,  but in Florida - there is Orange, Lemon, Grapefruit, and ... Loquat.
     
    Addon:     I have found that two feet is a sweet spot for lumber stock length.  That is way longer than any one piece of a ship could be, fits on a bench, is convenient to stack, and not too heavy to feed into a blade -  even an 8x4 12" wide board is not toooooo much.
  2. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from Canute in Band Saw Recommendations   
    I absolutely agree.   When I was fighting with my EmcoMeyer 3 wheel, and having endless tracking problems,  I had it in mind that a wider blade would tracker better.  I now believe that blade width has nothing to do with it.  I think that a wider blade is for a larger machine working thicker stock.  It is probably more about blade life and the tension that the blade needs.   For wood and a 14" saw,  1/2" width is probably as wide as is needed.  A 3/4" blade probably does not track any better, costs more, and generates more friction within the cut.
     
    I think that when a blade starts cutting more slowly, begins wandering - it means that it is dull - it is soon going to break. 
  3. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from Canute in Band Saw Recommendations   
    I add my vote to what Chuck  recommends. 
    I fought with a 3 wheel bench top for way too long. 
    I went an increment further with a Rikon 10-353.  It is 3HP.  It has also about doubled in price since I bought it.
    A 14" bandsaw with more than the minimal powered motor is what is needed for serious resawing. 
    Any bench top bandsaw will struggle with real resawing.  The blade on an undersized and underpowered machine is likely to wander or bow in the cut.  The loss of wood to misshapened cuts is significant. 
    If you are serious about this, a benchtop machine is a ticket to frustration and regret,  the very definition of false economy.
     
    I would not call any of this an investment, but if you buy a big boy machine you can always haunt the kit forums and when a post about "where to I find wood strips?" comes up from someone stateside, you could always try doing a deal IM  if you have the time.   You can also obtain wood species that are not available any other way, if you are young enough.   Apple, ornamental species of Pear, Hornbeam, Hophornbeam, Dogwood, Hawthorn, etc.   You may find wild Holly that is not snow white - but the yellow and Blue mold infected wood is perfect for our uses.  And besides,  the color of the much desired snow white stock does not match any wood that was used for actual ship building.  Sugar Pine and Basswood is about as close to white as any shipbuilding wood could get.
     
    @Chuck  If you have not done this already,  if your blades do not last as long as you wish and a carbide blade costs more than you want to pay, a Lenox Diemaster 2 Bi-metal blade is likely more cost effective.   It lasts many times longer than a steel WoodSlicer - a tad more kerf and a tad more set - but the much longer lifespan more than compensates.
    https://www.bandsawbladesdirect.com/lenox-diemaster-2-bi-metal-band-saw-blades
    a 9' 7"     1/2"x0.25" 4tpi   is $51.12
  4. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from Canute in What to apply over burnished wood   
    Alan,
     
    Next time you might consider scraping instead.  There are specific tools for this, but a Gem single edge razor blade or the straight edge of a piece of broken glass will also do the job.  It leaves pores open that sanding will fill with junk.  Burnishing may be more effective at sealing pores, but that whole process sounds like a bad idea for a wooden ship model.
     
    Prime the scraped surface with 1/2 strength shellac, then follow with as many coats of full strength shellac as it takes to get the depth and degree of gloss that meets your taste.  If it goes too far, 0000 steel wool or a Scotch Brite pad can be used to dull too much sheen.
     
    I also suspect that Renaissance wax will provide a finish layer that will satisfy you.  If not, Mineral Spirits will undo it.  
    I also suspect that shellac will work on your burnished surface.  There is not much that it will not cover or act as an undercoat for.
     
    To save on risking having to perform a tedious and time consuming undo, should things not work as desired, you should do a serious trial of whatever you select on scrap first.
     
  5. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from Canute in Fish glue alternatives?   
    No.   It may not be available.  My search points to it being another protein based adhesive.
     
    I suggest that you give Old Brown glue a test, but use dots.   Try a layer of wedding gift tissue paper along with it.
    It should mechanically separate.  Hot ethanol will have it roll up into little balls.
     
    StewMac has this really neato seam separator knife:
     

  6. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from Canute in Fish glue alternatives?   
    This is an unsolved problem for me, too.
     
    I need a bonding agent that will survive significant shear force and will readily release without affecting the PVA bonds next to it.
     
    Duco is a cellulose nitrate adhesive that releases with acetone.  PVA is unaffected by acetone.  But Duco as poor shear strength in my experience.
     
    Fish glue is a hide glue -  they are protein based adhesives.  The protein is totally denatured in the presence of ethanol and heat.   It is a strong adhesive that has a long history of competence. 
    The traditional form of hide glue is from a hot pot.  This avoids needing a solvent, but is complex and time consuming.  More work is needed than squeezing out a blob.
    I assume that the solvent in Seccotine is water.   Franklin makes a liquid hide glue, but the water content is significant.  Old Brown glue is supposed to be better quality, but still water.
    I use it for temporary timbers filling the spaces between or within frames.  It is better to have a solid hull when shaping, faring, and sanding.  No movement of timbers and the edges are crisp after it is done.
    I could not avoid using too much hide glue, so even the timbers of a pilot schooner were too thick to get a bond release without the heat gun cooking the Maple frame timbers.
    I suppose I should have used dots of glue.  Also, if a layer of newspaper or similar loose fiber paper was a part of each layer, the ethanol would wick in more readily, but glue would be needed on each side of the paper and I want quick and dirty.
     
    I next tried Scotch perm double sided tape.  Ethanol affects it.  It has good enough shear strength most of the time.  But to increase the strength, I burnished the first side.  It increases the hold.  Too much.  It releases well enough, but the burnished side lease the adhesive behind.  I can find no solvent for it, so it is a mechanical removal process, between frames.  It is maybe 200 or more gaps.  HMS Centurion is still waiting for me to recharge my initiative to tackle that tedium.
     
    My current thought is to use rubber cement.   Apply a layer on each surface.  Left it dry.  Stick the two together.
    The solvent is N-heptane.   It does not affect PVA bonds.  I suppose that using it as a solvent instead the a rubber cement thinner wants it being done where there is excellent ventilation and no chance of ignition.
  7. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in Band Saw Recommendations   
    I absolutely agree.   When I was fighting with my EmcoMeyer 3 wheel, and having endless tracking problems,  I had it in mind that a wider blade would tracker better.  I now believe that blade width has nothing to do with it.  I think that a wider blade is for a larger machine working thicker stock.  It is probably more about blade life and the tension that the blade needs.   For wood and a 14" saw,  1/2" width is probably as wide as is needed.  A 3/4" blade probably does not track any better, costs more, and generates more friction within the cut.
     
    I think that when a blade starts cutting more slowly, begins wandering - it means that it is dull - it is soon going to break. 
  8. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in Band Saw Recommendations   
    I add my vote to what Chuck  recommends. 
    I fought with a 3 wheel bench top for way too long. 
    I went an increment further with a Rikon 10-353.  It is 3HP.  It has also about doubled in price since I bought it.
    A 14" bandsaw with more than the minimal powered motor is what is needed for serious resawing. 
    Any bench top bandsaw will struggle with real resawing.  The blade on an undersized and underpowered machine is likely to wander or bow in the cut.  The loss of wood to misshapened cuts is significant. 
    If you are serious about this, a benchtop machine is a ticket to frustration and regret,  the very definition of false economy.
     
    I would not call any of this an investment, but if you buy a big boy machine you can always haunt the kit forums and when a post about "where to I find wood strips?" comes up from someone stateside, you could always try doing a deal IM  if you have the time.   You can also obtain wood species that are not available any other way, if you are young enough.   Apple, ornamental species of Pear, Hornbeam, Hophornbeam, Dogwood, Hawthorn, etc.   You may find wild Holly that is not snow white - but the yellow and Blue mold infected wood is perfect for our uses.  And besides,  the color of the much desired snow white stock does not match any wood that was used for actual ship building.  Sugar Pine and Basswood is about as close to white as any shipbuilding wood could get.
     
    @Chuck  If you have not done this already,  if your blades do not last as long as you wish and a carbide blade costs more than you want to pay, a Lenox Diemaster 2 Bi-metal blade is likely more cost effective.   It lasts many times longer than a steel WoodSlicer - a tad more kerf and a tad more set - but the much longer lifespan more than compensates.
    https://www.bandsawbladesdirect.com/lenox-diemaster-2-bi-metal-band-saw-blades
    a 9' 7"     1/2"x0.25" 4tpi   is $51.12
  9. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in What to apply over burnished wood   
    Alan,
     
    Next time you might consider scraping instead.  There are specific tools for this, but a Gem single edge razor blade or the straight edge of a piece of broken glass will also do the job.  It leaves pores open that sanding will fill with junk.  Burnishing may be more effective at sealing pores, but that whole process sounds like a bad idea for a wooden ship model.
     
    Prime the scraped surface with 1/2 strength shellac, then follow with as many coats of full strength shellac as it takes to get the depth and degree of gloss that meets your taste.  If it goes too far, 0000 steel wool or a Scotch Brite pad can be used to dull too much sheen.
     
    I also suspect that Renaissance wax will provide a finish layer that will satisfy you.  If not, Mineral Spirits will undo it.  
    I also suspect that shellac will work on your burnished surface.  There is not much that it will not cover or act as an undercoat for.
     
    To save on risking having to perform a tedious and time consuming undo, should things not work as desired, you should do a serious trial of whatever you select on scrap first.
     
  10. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in Band Saw Recommendations   
    The foot print is not as large as would be guessed.   Not that much more than a 9" or 10" bench top - considering that they either stay occupying valuable bench space or have to be parked - and are not light weight or easy to lift.  The 14" saws are on wheels so that they can be moved into an open enough area to allow for lumber excursion.  One factor that you really want - if there is any way to get it - is to have a 220 V  outlet and a motor that is rated for that power.  
     
    Blacksburg may be a location with access to old Apple trees -  a species that is as good as can be used,  but in Florida - there is Orange, Lemon, Grapefruit, and ... Loquat.
     
    Addon:     I have found that two feet is a sweet spot for lumber stock length.  That is way longer than any one piece of a ship could be, fits on a bench, is convenient to stack, and not too heavy to feed into a blade -  even an 8x4 12" wide board is not toooooo much.
  11. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from VTHokiEE in Band Saw Recommendations   
    The foot print is not as large as would be guessed.   Not that much more than a 9" or 10" bench top - considering that they either stay occupying valuable bench space or have to be parked - and are not light weight or easy to lift.  The 14" saws are on wheels so that they can be moved into an open enough area to allow for lumber excursion.  One factor that you really want - if there is any way to get it - is to have a 220 V  outlet and a motor that is rated for that power.  
     
    Blacksburg may be a location with access to old Apple trees -  a species that is as good as can be used,  but in Florida - there is Orange, Lemon, Grapefruit, and ... Loquat.
     
    Addon:     I have found that two feet is a sweet spot for lumber stock length.  That is way longer than any one piece of a ship could be, fits on a bench, is convenient to stack, and not too heavy to feed into a blade -  even an 8x4 12" wide board is not toooooo much.
  12. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from druxey in EURYALUS 1803 by Peter6172 - 1:48   
    Druxey was not referencing not doing a model version of the prototype, for historical reasons.  There have been at least two 18th or 19th or even 20th century models that used iron and that are subjects of recent journal articles.  These articles showed that the iron was gone and the wood around the holes where they were is black.   Our atmosphere contains enough water that when combined with the organic acids in wood works relentlessly oxidize the iron.  "Rusting never sleeps."
     
    I have decided to place the deck clamps,  then use a jig to determine the top of each sill and the bottom of each lintel.  This way both are sloped to follow the deck camber at each port.  If you intend to plank the topside out and in - an oversize hole in the frames will be hidden.
  13. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from grsjax in Band Saw Recommendations   
    I add my vote to what Chuck  recommends. 
    I fought with a 3 wheel bench top for way too long. 
    I went an increment further with a Rikon 10-353.  It is 3HP.  It has also about doubled in price since I bought it.
    A 14" bandsaw with more than the minimal powered motor is what is needed for serious resawing. 
    Any bench top bandsaw will struggle with real resawing.  The blade on an undersized and underpowered machine is likely to wander or bow in the cut.  The loss of wood to misshapened cuts is significant. 
    If you are serious about this, a benchtop machine is a ticket to frustration and regret,  the very definition of false economy.
     
    I would not call any of this an investment, but if you buy a big boy machine you can always haunt the kit forums and when a post about "where to I find wood strips?" comes up from someone stateside, you could always try doing a deal IM  if you have the time.   You can also obtain wood species that are not available any other way, if you are young enough.   Apple, ornamental species of Pear, Hornbeam, Hophornbeam, Dogwood, Hawthorn, etc.   You may find wild Holly that is not snow white - but the yellow and Blue mold infected wood is perfect for our uses.  And besides,  the color of the much desired snow white stock does not match any wood that was used for actual ship building.  Sugar Pine and Basswood is about as close to white as any shipbuilding wood could get.
     
    @Chuck  If you have not done this already,  if your blades do not last as long as you wish and a carbide blade costs more than you want to pay, a Lenox Diemaster 2 Bi-metal blade is likely more cost effective.   It lasts many times longer than a steel WoodSlicer - a tad more kerf and a tad more set - but the much longer lifespan more than compensates.
    https://www.bandsawbladesdirect.com/lenox-diemaster-2-bi-metal-band-saw-blades
    a 9' 7"     1/2"x0.25" 4tpi   is $51.12
  14. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in EURYALUS 1803 by Peter6172 - 1:48   
    Druxey was not referencing not doing a model version of the prototype, for historical reasons.  There have been at least two 18th or 19th or even 20th century models that used iron and that are subjects of recent journal articles.  These articles showed that the iron was gone and the wood around the holes where they were is black.   Our atmosphere contains enough water that when combined with the organic acids in wood works relentlessly oxidize the iron.  "Rusting never sleeps."
     
    I have decided to place the deck clamps,  then use a jig to determine the top of each sill and the bottom of each lintel.  This way both are sloped to follow the deck camber at each port.  If you intend to plank the topside out and in - an oversize hole in the frames will be hidden.
  15. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from DaveBaxt in Polyurethane vs Lacquer vs Shellac   
    I use super blonde flakes.  A fresh batch dissolves fairly quickly.   Old flakes have a residue (a translucent gel) that never dissolves for me. 
     
    Ethanol has a special affinity for water.  It is 95%:5% ethanol to water.  The bond is not covalent,  but it requires much more energy and effort to break than is possible with distillation.  One way is to distill from benzene.  Doing this in a closed atmosphere WILL yield 100% ethanol.  BUT, as soon as it is exposed to our atmosphere, it will pull water vapor in until it becomes 95:5 again.  I have not read anything to indicate that it will continue to pull in water beyond that concentration.  The ethanol will go to its gas phase if left in an open container.
     
  16. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in Sleep Deprivation on Navy Ships?   
    Topic drift here....  but I remember from Physiology that at a certain point - the brain will go into sleep mode - neither conscious or conscientious effort will be able to stop it.   It seems perverse and ineffective to punish for sleeping on guard duty if the individual was not allowed a nap before that duty.
  17. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from Peter6172 in EURYALUS 1803 by Peter6172 - 1:48   
    Druxey was not referencing not doing a model version of the prototype, for historical reasons.  There have been at least two 18th or 19th or even 20th century models that used iron and that are subjects of recent journal articles.  These articles showed that the iron was gone and the wood around the holes where they were is black.   Our atmosphere contains enough water that when combined with the organic acids in wood works relentlessly oxidize the iron.  "Rusting never sleeps."
     
    I have decided to place the deck clamps,  then use a jig to determine the top of each sill and the bottom of each lintel.  This way both are sloped to follow the deck camber at each port.  If you intend to plank the topside out and in - an oversize hole in the frames will be hidden.
  18. Thanks!
    Jaager reacted to Harvey Golden in HAMMS   
    The bound sets do have a number of photographs-- not likely all taken by researchers, but they are well-curated. There is also updated (ca. 1980s) information and background on most of the boats included. Another very nice feature of the bound volumes is the introductory sections which include the history of the HAMMS program as well as retrospectives by a number of people involved.  A very nice surprise is the artistic and full-color plates made by some of the researchers-- there's an entire "artwork" appendix in one of the volumes.  I haven't seen sets listed for $3,000 in recent years, but have for around half that; it's actually an incredible bargain when one considers ordering all the plans individually from the Smithsonian. 
     
    Here's a jot I wrote about these Volumes recently, for any interested: 
     

    The Historic American Merchant Marine Survey
     
    In the midst of the Great Depression, the Works Progress Administration had many projects designed to employ workers laid off from various trades.  The short-lived Federal Project No. 6 employed shipwrights, marine surveyors, and naval architects to document ships and boats around the United States.  Despite its formal name (Historic American Merchant Marine Survey), many of the vessels surveyed were more common or anonymous than historic; a number of recreational craft and foreign-builds are also included.  During the year-and-a-half they were active (1936-1937), they recorded over 350 vessels.  Some consist of lines lifted from half-models in museums and shipyards, while others were on-site documentation of full-size vessels—some derelict, some still active.  The presentation consists of the common three-view scale drawing of a vessel’s lines, and often numerous pages of construction details, machinery details, and sail and rigging plans. 
     
    These drawings, while available individually from the Smithsonian Institution for many years, had not been assembled into publication until 1983, when the Ayer Publishing Co. of New Hampshire turned these into a large seven volume set, complete with an introduction on the project, retrospectives by those involved, and new introductory information on each recorded vessel.  Further, the volumes include photographs of many vessels during documentation, as well as full-color and monochrome watercolor sketches made by the surveyors. The beauty of this edition is astonishing—and every drawing in it was hand inked by gifted experts, each with their own style, precision, and artfulness. The size—23-1/2” x 18-1/2” is a very worthy size for the quality of the illustrations, and many pages are foldouts. Very few libraries hold these volumes; I haven’t been able to find how many were printed.  According to WorldCat, only 11 sets are in U.S. Libraries, only 2 of which are on the West Coast.  
     
    The range of documented watercraft is astounding.  Some of the older recorded vessels are from the 1820s, while others were just a few years old.  The survey includes dugout canoes from Nicaragua, a U.S. Revenue Cutter, sharpies, scows, schooners, barks, full-rigged iron ships, sponge fishing craft, tug boats, steamships, stern- and side-wheelers, and even two Polar exploration vessels (Peary’s S.S. Roosevelt, and what may be the only larger vessel from the survey still in existence: Roald Amundsen’s Gjöa).  Small inshore fishing craft of many designs and lineages are also represented.  
     
    The West Coast is well represented for some areas, but in the Retrospective, a contributor expresses regret at not getting the program into and up the Columbia River.  Columbia River watercraft have since received attention and documentation, courtesy of the Historic American Engineering Record, established by the National Park Service in 1969.  The closest-to-Astoria vessel in the HAMMS set is the Steam Schooner Willapa, built in Raymond, Washington in 1908. The Willapa is masterfully recorded in over 17 sheets of drawings.  The volumes include a number of vessels of this type as well as other lumber carriers, including sailing vessels built in the Puget Sound—no doubt many serviced ports on the Columbia River. 
     
    That this project was ever created is a bit of a miracle; its success is perhaps even more miraculous given the necessary organization and its brief existence.  At one point, the director of the project (Eric J. Steinlein) was faced with an overwhelming backlog of work the very day before the official termination of the project.  He penned a letter that afternoon beginning “Dear Mr. Roosevelt…” which bought them six more months to work. 
     
    That this was the right project at the right time cannot be understated. A collapsed economy and widespread poverty spelled a quick end to many already aged wooden vessels. The age of working sail was effectively over, and steel was becoming the material of choice for smaller and smaller craft—eventually fiberglass would replace the smallest of wooden work boats. During the Great Depression, the older relics had not yet rotted completely away, and they were ripe for documentation.  These volumes provide a glimpse of what was—a diverse fleet no longer in existence, captured in its twilight. Also captured in these volumes are the mastery of draftsmen trained by hand, shipbuilders trained by eye, and the ever-pressing urgency of historical documentation. 
     
     
  19. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from modeller_masa in which mini wood lathe is best?   
    Benjamin,
    Playing the numbers, knowing nothing about your real situation, 
    at 15 you are likely entering a time of brain development that will only be complete when age ~22 is reached. 
    Your interests may change significantly as this proceeds.  Making major capital outlays for tools now, based on a focus that may change significantly,  may leave you with tools that you have no use for.   Returns from the second hand tool market are decidedly in a buyers favor. 
     
    If the buyer of your current model is family or pseudo family then you are assured of a return.  If you intend to sell to a stranger,  I believe that the experience with most who do  is that the selling price is pretty close to what was paid for the kit.   I think for most of us, getting a return that is equal to materials plus hours spent x $15  is an opium dream.
     
    Check some recent threads here about adapting an electric drill to act as a lathe.  A corded electric drill is a tool that will be useful for your whole life.  A cordless rechargeable drill is more convenient but the batteries have a shelf life and buying a replacement in the future - may be difficult due to tech changes or companies being companies, or cost more than it is worth.
     
     
     
  20. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in Polyurethane vs Lacquer vs Shellac   
    I use super blonde flakes.  A fresh batch dissolves fairly quickly.   Old flakes have a residue (a translucent gel) that never dissolves for me. 
     
    Ethanol has a special affinity for water.  It is 95%:5% ethanol to water.  The bond is not covalent,  but it requires much more energy and effort to break than is possible with distillation.  One way is to distill from benzene.  Doing this in a closed atmosphere WILL yield 100% ethanol.  BUT, as soon as it is exposed to our atmosphere, it will pull water vapor in until it becomes 95:5 again.  I have not read anything to indicate that it will continue to pull in water beyond that concentration.  The ethanol will go to its gas phase if left in an open container.
     
  21. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from Canute in which mini wood lathe is best?   
    Benjamin,
    Playing the numbers, knowing nothing about your real situation, 
    at 15 you are likely entering a time of brain development that will only be complete when age ~22 is reached. 
    Your interests may change significantly as this proceeds.  Making major capital outlays for tools now, based on a focus that may change significantly,  may leave you with tools that you have no use for.   Returns from the second hand tool market are decidedly in a buyers favor. 
     
    If the buyer of your current model is family or pseudo family then you are assured of a return.  If you intend to sell to a stranger,  I believe that the experience with most who do  is that the selling price is pretty close to what was paid for the kit.   I think for most of us, getting a return that is equal to materials plus hours spent x $15  is an opium dream.
     
    Check some recent threads here about adapting an electric drill to act as a lathe.  A corded electric drill is a tool that will be useful for your whole life.  A cordless rechargeable drill is more convenient but the batteries have a shelf life and buying a replacement in the future - may be difficult due to tech changes or companies being companies, or cost more than it is worth.
     
     
     
  22. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from Charter33 in Fish glue alternatives?   
    This is an unsolved problem for me, too.
     
    I need a bonding agent that will survive significant shear force and will readily release without affecting the PVA bonds next to it.
     
    Duco is a cellulose nitrate adhesive that releases with acetone.  PVA is unaffected by acetone.  But Duco as poor shear strength in my experience.
     
    Fish glue is a hide glue -  they are protein based adhesives.  The protein is totally denatured in the presence of ethanol and heat.   It is a strong adhesive that has a long history of competence. 
    The traditional form of hide glue is from a hot pot.  This avoids needing a solvent, but is complex and time consuming.  More work is needed than squeezing out a blob.
    I assume that the solvent in Seccotine is water.   Franklin makes a liquid hide glue, but the water content is significant.  Old Brown glue is supposed to be better quality, but still water.
    I use it for temporary timbers filling the spaces between or within frames.  It is better to have a solid hull when shaping, faring, and sanding.  No movement of timbers and the edges are crisp after it is done.
    I could not avoid using too much hide glue, so even the timbers of a pilot schooner were too thick to get a bond release without the heat gun cooking the Maple frame timbers.
    I suppose I should have used dots of glue.  Also, if a layer of newspaper or similar loose fiber paper was a part of each layer, the ethanol would wick in more readily, but glue would be needed on each side of the paper and I want quick and dirty.
     
    I next tried Scotch perm double sided tape.  Ethanol affects it.  It has good enough shear strength most of the time.  But to increase the strength, I burnished the first side.  It increases the hold.  Too much.  It releases well enough, but the burnished side lease the adhesive behind.  I can find no solvent for it, so it is a mechanical removal process, between frames.  It is maybe 200 or more gaps.  HMS Centurion is still waiting for me to recharge my initiative to tackle that tedium.
     
    My current thought is to use rubber cement.   Apply a layer on each surface.  Left it dry.  Stick the two together.
    The solvent is N-heptane.   It does not affect PVA bonds.  I suppose that using it as a solvent instead the a rubber cement thinner wants it being done where there is excellent ventilation and no chance of ignition.
  23. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from Keith Black in Fish glue alternatives?   
    No.   It may not be available.  My search points to it being another protein based adhesive.
     
    I suggest that you give Old Brown glue a test, but use dots.   Try a layer of wedding gift tissue paper along with it.
    It should mechanically separate.  Hot ethanol will have it roll up into little balls.
     
    StewMac has this really neato seam separator knife:
     

  24. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from Keith Black in Fish glue alternatives?   
    This is an unsolved problem for me, too.
     
    I need a bonding agent that will survive significant shear force and will readily release without affecting the PVA bonds next to it.
     
    Duco is a cellulose nitrate adhesive that releases with acetone.  PVA is unaffected by acetone.  But Duco as poor shear strength in my experience.
     
    Fish glue is a hide glue -  they are protein based adhesives.  The protein is totally denatured in the presence of ethanol and heat.   It is a strong adhesive that has a long history of competence. 
    The traditional form of hide glue is from a hot pot.  This avoids needing a solvent, but is complex and time consuming.  More work is needed than squeezing out a blob.
    I assume that the solvent in Seccotine is water.   Franklin makes a liquid hide glue, but the water content is significant.  Old Brown glue is supposed to be better quality, but still water.
    I use it for temporary timbers filling the spaces between or within frames.  It is better to have a solid hull when shaping, faring, and sanding.  No movement of timbers and the edges are crisp after it is done.
    I could not avoid using too much hide glue, so even the timbers of a pilot schooner were too thick to get a bond release without the heat gun cooking the Maple frame timbers.
    I suppose I should have used dots of glue.  Also, if a layer of newspaper or similar loose fiber paper was a part of each layer, the ethanol would wick in more readily, but glue would be needed on each side of the paper and I want quick and dirty.
     
    I next tried Scotch perm double sided tape.  Ethanol affects it.  It has good enough shear strength most of the time.  But to increase the strength, I burnished the first side.  It increases the hold.  Too much.  It releases well enough, but the burnished side lease the adhesive behind.  I can find no solvent for it, so it is a mechanical removal process, between frames.  It is maybe 200 or more gaps.  HMS Centurion is still waiting for me to recharge my initiative to tackle that tedium.
     
    My current thought is to use rubber cement.   Apply a layer on each surface.  Left it dry.  Stick the two together.
    The solvent is N-heptane.   It does not affect PVA bonds.  I suppose that using it as a solvent instead the a rubber cement thinner wants it being done where there is excellent ventilation and no chance of ignition.
  25. Like
    Jaager got a reaction from mtaylor in Fish glue alternatives?   
    No.   It may not be available.  My search points to it being another protein based adhesive.
     
    I suggest that you give Old Brown glue a test, but use dots.   Try a layer of wedding gift tissue paper along with it.
    It should mechanically separate.  Hot ethanol will have it roll up into little balls.
     
    StewMac has this really neato seam separator knife:
     

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