rybakov

The first of the six sculptures is shown in this picture. They represented Consilium, that is Counsell; Cura, that is Care; Conamen, that is Industry; Vis which implied force; Virtus or Virtue; and Victoria, that is Victory. This description of the figures is taken from the text of "A True Description of His Majesty's Royall Ship" by Thomas Heywood written in 1638.
 

 
Two of the six sculptures are completed and mounted on the pedestals. Note the bottom of each sculpture forms the top of the pedestal.
 

 
A side view of the new sculptures.
 

 
 
More to follow.............

I'd like that, thank you.
After a long time away from that time period my interest is slowly returning.
My interest faded because no one could even agree on what a caravel looked like and how it would manoeuvre
and much of the discussion was biased, i.e. the portuguese greatness and uniqueness were the aims taking the
discussion out of the european context. (forty some years later I still find I am biased).
A few years back I found Texas A&M research and I have been following their research throug Academia.edu.
 
All the best
Zeh

Yes I know the Miller Atlas. I think it's fantastic. The old portolans often have surprisingly good pictures of ships, particularly from about 1500 to 1580. Some months ago I did a google image search under portolan/portulan/portulano etc and came with a treasure trove of pictures. Not terribly good on detail but very enlightening on the general shape and form of ships of the time. I put a few up on a discussion about the Mary Rose's forecastle, if you're interested.
 
Best wishes, Steven

Steven
 
It's probably old news to you but here goes a link to the Miller atlas from 1519 drawn by Lopo Homem and
the brothers Reinel and has a lot of drawings of ships both portuguese and eastern
 
http://expositions.bnf.fr/marine/albums/miller/index.htm
 
 
Enjoy
 
Zeh

Steven
 
It's probably old news to you but here goes a link to the Miller atlas from 1519 drawn by Lopo Homem and
the brothers Reinel and has a lot of drawings of ships both portuguese and eastern
 
http://expositions.bnf.fr/marine/albums/miller/index.htm
 
 
Enjoy
 
Zeh

Yes that's a very interesting resource and I got all excited when I found it. I was very disappointed when I discovered it was produced decades after the event.
 
Even the Calicut Tapestry isn't fully representative of Vasco da Gama's ships. Though it was made a very short time after the events, it was produced in Flanders, not Portugal. And the artist probably used a Flemish ship as his model, not a Portuguese one. From looking at a lot of carrack pictures, they were all quite similar, but there were definite regional differences.
 
Still all we can do is make a 'best guess' with what information we do have and try to get as close as we can to how the real ships were.
 
We all have lots to learn. But that's what makes it fun.
 
 
Steven

Ships pivot around the head from rudder movement, it is the stern that swings, that trait saved my ship 'the Ammen' from being cut in two during a collision, just enough time to start the swing, so the other ship slid down our Port side.  19 July 1960, USS Ammen DD 527, killed 11 injured 25.
jud

Well, I don't know the Calicut tapestry, but I'm ready to take your word on it.
You made me go back and find if I was just reproducing second hand schoolbook illustrations.
there is at least one contemporary drawing already showing the shapes I recall.
It'a a page of Livro das Armadas (Fleet's Book) showing the fleet of Pedro Alvares Cabral in 1500
the same fleet that discovered Brasil, with the fate of the ships, including in the right lower corner the
caravel of Bartolomeu Dias with the note "lost in the storm".
Look at the shapes in the first row, they are what I recalled, though a bit schematic.
 
 
Personal note:
I am not trying to assert I'm right I'm just putting forward what I think I know to be discussed and if I can
learn something from it so much the better which usually happens because most members here are much 
more knowleageable than I
 
 
All the best
Zeh

Yes, I find that whole period of ship design fascinating. And certainly naus did develop into the kind of ship you linked to. That's more of a galleon shape - with a beakhead and without the gigantic forecastle and sterncastle that would have made late "super-carracks" like the Mary Rose so unwieldy.
 
Steven

Hi Steven
 
 
You're probably closer to being right than I, but that type of image of the discoveries "naus" is with me
from my school days, and reinforced by the sort of reconstructions as in the link bellow (second photo),
so I couldn't resist
 
http://museu.marinha.pt/pt/galeriadigital/fotografias/modelos/Paginas/default.aspx
 
thanks for replying
Zeh

Actually only 23 years, and we don't know how old the Esmerelda was when she sank.
 
The Flor de la Mar is dated to 1511 but I believe the picture to have been produced some decades later.
 
Pictures of which the date is known, such as the Calicut Tapestry of 1504 (of Vasco da Gama's voyage to India) and Jacopo de Barbari's picture of Venice of 1500 still show the classic carrack shape. By the time of the Santa Caterina do Monto Sinai of 1520 ships were getting bigger and more sophisticated, but a nau wrecked in 1503 will have looked very like the ships mentioned above.

Sorry to disagree Steven
 
just fifty years apart in time, but almost a world apart in concept and capabilities
She would look more or less like this:
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flor_de_la_Mar
 
 
They were contemporary and about the same size.
 
 
Zeh

Sorry to disagree Steven
 
just fifty years apart in time, but almost a world apart in concept and capabilities
She would look more or less like this:
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flor_de_la_Mar
 
 
They were contemporary and about the same size.
 
 
Zeh

Whatever it is it's covered by canvas all the way to the deck, so I would go with cranes and
aligned with the quarterdeck cranes.
 
About the guns they seem to me to be swivel guns......sensible precaution in battle if you're boarded
 
 
cheers
Zeh

Hi Daniel
 
To me they seem to be fairleads, and to have a small roller in front.
 
(I have that picture in my computer, can enlarge it quite a bit but had never noticed it)
 
keep digging up this sort of stuff
 
Zeh

There were 6 carronades on the poop from 1780 to 1792. These were not refitted after the great repair. Neither the less the ports could still be "visible" in one way or the other in 1803, if this area was not subject of a complete rebuild.
 
The best guess so far for the swivels is the use as signal/salute guns, as the ship was visibly disarmed when Turner drew it.
 
XXXDAn

Hi Daniel
 
To me they seem to be fairleads, and to have a small roller in front.
 
(I have that picture in my computer, can enlarge it quite a bit but had never noticed it)
 
keep digging up this sort of stuff
 
Zeh

Turner depicted a small detail of Victorys poop deck railing in both a sketch and in one of his paintings. What could this be? A lead? A clamp? A decoration?
 

 
Thank you, Daniel

Harris' biography about af Chapman has a very interesting appendix with Chapman´s hand-written calculations for a 70-gun ship, made in 1767.
He calculated:
 
- displacement volume (with two methods, integration of the cross-sectional areas at each station and integration of the areas of each waterplane)
- location of the centre of bouyancy
- centre of flotation
- location of the metacentric heigth above the load waterline
 
Well worth a look if one wants to know how they did things back then

At one time, not so far back, "calculator" was not a device, but a profession.

http://waxine.com/produit/4/brou-de-noix
 
This is the product I use. My understanding is that it is remains if water is use  and fix if  some kind of alcohol is use soluble. I do not know what is aniline.
Also, I like to do some mixes with Tung oil.
 
http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/327-le-fleuron-by-gaetan-bordeleau-124/page-21
 
Also I did some experiments  with some of these products. My guess is that turpentine is a fixer but I cannot certify this fact.
 
Dark brown is a good choice of color for English ropes. For the French ropes around 1780 ropes were pine  tarred with a quality tar coming from  the north of Europe
  Swedish tar maker introduced the fabrication in France. The best tar came from Scandinavian forest. It is clear, fine and a bit red.
 
tarred rope is weaker and less flexible than a white rope, however it is more resistant to moisture.
Extraits de Traité de la fabrique des manoeuvres pour les vaisseaux
ou L'ART de la CORDERIE PERFECTIONNÉ de Mon Sieur Duhamel du Monceau
paru en  M. DCC. LXIX  ( 1769 - seconde édition )
à Paris chez Desaint, Libraire, rue du Foin.
 
 
Just to liven things up (so to speak), here are two excerpts from Alexander D. Fordyce: Outline of Naval Routine (1837)http://books.google....id=vPANAQAAMAAJ
 
RATLING RIGGING (pages 45 - 46)
 
Girt out the Rigging with a Fore and Aft Swifter, but not very much out of the straight line; then spar it down with spare Spars, Studding-sail Yards, Boat's Oars or Hand-spikes, all seized on carefully square.
 
Nettle-stuff made from Bolt-rope Yarns, or something equivalent, is very necessary for seizing the Ratlings with; and, if new, it ought to be well and carefully stretched previous to cutting. The best Seizing-stuff should be preserved till the new Ratlings have been a little worn.
 
Fourteen or sixteen inches is a good distance between the Ratlings, and their places should be calked off all the way up and down before commencing. Each man employed should have a measure within his reach, and special care should be taken to make the Ratlings of the one side correspond in parallel direction with those of the other. This can only be seen from outside.
 
If the Rigging is to blacked after Ratling down, it is best to leave the Spars on till that is done; but if the Rigging is not to be blacked, the Spars may be taken off as the new Seizings are finished and blacked.
 
BLACKING RIGGING. (pages 46-47)
 
When blacking new Rigging for the first time, the best mixture will perhaps be found to be Stockholm Tar, Coal Tar, and Salt Water, in equal proportions, and heated up in the Fish Kettle, over which a Sentry should be placed. After the first blacking, half the quantity of Stockholm Tar is sufficient; Coal Tar alone being always used for the Yards and Bends.
 
The most convenient method of Blacking Rigging is with Top-gallant Masts on deck, but Royal and Top-gallant Rigging placed at Mast-heads; for the men who ride down and black the Topmast Stays, can then at the same time black the Topgallant and Royal Stays handily; or, what is handier still, men at the Mast-head haul over and black these small Stays, and pay them down forward when done; the men, also, who black down the Topmast Backstays, can carry on at the same time with Topgallant and Royal Backstays. In addition to all which, the Masts are kept clean.
 
If, on the other hand, Top-gallant Masts be kept up when Blacking, the Small Stays and Backstays must be let go, in order that they may be got at by the men on the Topmast Stays and Backstays; consequently, the Masts must be adrift, and exhibit a specimen of slovenliness unbecoming a Man-of-War. The Masts will, moreover, be daubed over with Blacking; and if it come on to blow so as to render it necessary to get Topgallant Masts on deck before the Rigging be dry, much injury must result to the Blacking.
 
Previous to commencing, the Decks should be well sanded, and the Paint-work and Figure-head carefully covered with old Canvas and Hammocks. The Quarter Tackle should be clapped on one side of Main Yard, and a Burton on the other, ready for Provisioning and Clearing Boats.
 
The Hammocks should also be covered, and the Quarter Boats lowered out of the way.
 
The finer and warmer the day, the better. The Blacking will lay on so much the smoother and thinner; but commencement should be delayed till the dew is well dried off.
 
Topsail and Lower-lifts should be blacked first; the men having to stand upon the Yards to do them.
 
A smooth, calm day is required for the Bends ; for the Blacking will not take effect, unless the surface it is laid upon be dry.

My friend, they used logarithms. They memorized the table of logs. A modern sliderule is nothing but a replacement for memorization. They used pen/pencil, paper, and their brains, along with a book of tables, if necessary.
 
This was the age of d'Alembert, Bernouli, Euler, Fourier, Laplace, Lagrange, Gauss, Rolle, and a bit earlier Newton, Descartes, and Fermat. Mathemeticians that we moderns are, frankly, unable to comprehend without an "advanced" degree; and it took 358 years to solve Fermat's last, the proof of which he declined to put in the margin because it was a 'bit' too long.
 
Don't ever make the mistake of thinking these people weren't "accurate" just because they didn't have computers or Exel. They had more practical math sense than I could ever hope to have, and I'm a physicist and naval architect.
 
John

As I do not find much time to do bigger things, I was looking for bits that could be done in smaller steps :-)   And know something very hurtful for all lovers of the classic look, not only the "proposed pink-punk" is new to get used to, much more hurtful and more provable things are on the way ;-)   By the "rediscovered" Turner drawings from after the return from Trafalgar one can see clearly the build bulwarks instead of the timber heads. Also 3 ports are to be seen. Compared to the Jotica version I used the smaller holes to give access to the timber heads as seen in the Boyne/Union classes and aft of the waist on todays ship.    Took me some thought to get the smooth curve into all 3 dimensions, so I started with bolting on a base.     Then determined the position of the ports with some ledger shrouds ...     ... glued on the inner planking, opened the base at the gunport ...     ... temporarily placed the timber heads, fixed in the internal structure ...     ... glued on the outer planking and opened the openings.     The handrail are two evergreen strips glued together to obtain a nice curve.          
Cheers, Daniel

Hi Dafi
 
In the following link you will find the full process of hauling up the anchor, albeit in the late XIX century, and getting under way.
The capstans are still manual and there is the sequence of operations, the stations for the crew, etc.
 
 
http://www.hnsa.org/resources/manuals-documents/age-of-sail/textbook-of-seamanship/getting-under-way-under-sail/
 
 
hope this helps
 
Zeh

Hi Dafi
 
In the following link you will find the full process of hauling up the anchor, albeit in the late XIX century, and getting under way.
The capstans are still manual and there is the sequence of operations, the stations for the crew, etc.
 
 
http://www.hnsa.org/resources/manuals-documents/age-of-sail/textbook-of-seamanship/getting-under-way-under-sail/
 
 
hope this helps
 
Zeh