uss frolick

I agree. We should always interpret the lines of a ship from a small 2D photograph of a model at our peril! Ditto unusual winkie placement.

Don't you think the stern view on page 92, bottom, of Modeles Historiques, shows a more of a v-shape? Anyway, the only other frigate plans that I have seen with eight windows, or any even number of windows, is Forfait's Topaze of 1804 (HMS Alcmene, 1809), and of course Forfait's large L'Immortalitie class. Although Topaze's counter timbers have greater rake than the Renomme's model, they have less rake than the average Sane ship. Topaze and Renomme were both built in Nantes, two years apart, and I can't think of any other Nantes built 18-pounder frigates.

Thanks John! One of the unique features of the La Renomme model is the upright nature of her counter timbers - practically no rake at all. Your sail plan shows the same characteristic. Sane ships usually had a great, gracefully looking rake. One thing that I can not determine, based on the dozen or so photographs that I have seen, about the La Renomme Model, is whether she had a beak-head bulkhead, of a full bow. If anyone sees the model in person, place make note!

Hi Bava! The midship shape seen in a (kind of) head-on photo of the model clearly shows the rising V-shaped dead-rise as seen on the Forfait draughts, and not the Sane apple shape. But Many, including Boudroit, insist that Sane designed La Renomme. And the stern of the frigate shows her name beneath the windows.

JohnE, I just noticed your earlier observation that Forfait was more likely than Sane to incorporate bridle ports on the the forty-gun frigates. This would support my theory that La Renomme (later HMS Java) was a Forfait designed ship, and not a Sane, as is often claimed.

Thanks, Grsjax! I just checked your website, but they came up empty too.

I know. I wonder why that is. Bios of Hull, Porter, Decatur, Perry and Blakeley are commonly found in the usual places. I read "Ready to Hazard" on an interlibrary loan copy years ago. It was good, but not so special, as to warrant collecting or hoarding by the naval history community. Perhaps fewer than the usual number of copies were printed. Bainbridge was a real SOB too, so I don't think he has a devoted following. I am in SW Florida. WA is beautiful. You are a fortunate fellow.

I would like to buy the biography of Captain William Bainbridge, "Ready to Hazard" by Dr. David Long, 1981. If anyone would like to part with their copy, I would be grateful.

I wonder what remains of the British whale-ships burned and scuttled by Captain Porter of the Frigate Essex in the Galapagos and the Marquesas Islands in 1813.

HMS Charon was a two-decker 44, and a sister ship to Harold Hahn's HMS Roebuck, and John Paul Jones's prize, HMS Serapis.

Yep. And the Yankee blockaders too.

I checked Darcy Lever's "A Young Sea Officers Sheet Anchor", 1819, but I didn't see it depicted. So, I'll make up a suitable name. How about "Mermaid Scooper"?

When I read the word Charon, I always think of the 44-gun British ship sunk at Yorktown. When I read the word Styx, I am reminded of: "Come Sail Away ..." and "Domo Arigato, Mr. Roboto ..." Oh well, sounds like I got "Too Much Time On My Hands ..."

I would go with the later armament. But I think you might have to build up a solid forecastle bulwarks, and re-space the quarterdeck and forecastle gun-ports so that they fall into the shroud spaces made by the gun deck ports. This was becoming standard practice in American, France and England by 1810. This was done as much to protect the tarred shrouds from the carronade's flash, as it was to protect the crew. Look at the Renomme model of 1806 for examples of both. American Naval Constructor Josiah Fox described the new practice in 1807: " .... All the Fore Castle and quarterdeck ports in out frigates (the Chesapeak [sic] excepted) are equally spaced between the ports on the Gun-deck; This mode (though uniform) is attended with great disadvantage to the direction of those guns, particularly Carronades, where the Ports are in the wake of the Channels; It is usual with all Nations to place their Fore Castle and quarterdeck ports in their frigates between the same Shrouds that are spaced for the Main-Deck ports, by which means the shrouds have less spread fore and aft, and being more abreast of the Mast, afford more support to the Masts than they do now; and at the same time enable the Guns to range clear of the Shrouds, and point to more advantage than in the former mode ..." I also like the French mounting better than the English, with its four casters instead of two, and the breach rope that passes all the way through the bulwarks. By 1810, the French carronade looked like a real British carronade, but back in 1793, the French 36-pounders were shorter brass howitzers (French model 1787 Obusier de Vaisseau) used mostly to toss grape and canister. In the later period, according to British Historian William James, French forty-gun 18-pounder frigates were commonly armed with fourteen 24-pounder carronades and just two long eights.

Thank you for your kind words. But you actually built it, and I just went "blah, blah ..."

I really like your stern carvings and figurehead reconstruction!

Warships are considered military graves, as was the Spanish frigate that blew up off the Azores, and they may not be salvaged without permission. Were treasure galleons warships, or were they more like the English armed East India Company merchant ships?

I hope they salvage some of the artifacts, as well as the gold. To me, objects of everyday, early 18th-century naval life, are the real treasure.

Tom, apple wood has a lot to offer, and you're lucky enough to be living in part of the country (Connecticut) where it is cheap and plentiful. Although the heartwood is darker, the sap wood is nice and light, and the grain is tight. Makes a sweet smell when you saw it, too!

That's a solid hull project, yes? And what is your scale? I know it's only one photo, but the lines and sheer look very smooth. I noticed you penciled the position of every frame on the lower hull. I see a lot of good in that hull, and nothing bad. Just remember, we are our own worst critic.

Huzzah! I'll be watching too.

Until I saw the Carnot, I never thought any 19th century warship was ugly. What are all those square openings in the hull side, if not broadside ports? But they can't be broadside ports on a ship built that late. Windows for the crew? Why even put them in the side turret blisters, so close to the waterline?

Bad Mark. No cookie.

Please Ancre, make the next Frigate monograph a 24-pounder ship like La Forte/Eqyptienne, La Resistance/Vengeance, L'Immortalite, etc.

OK! No more dry stuff! From here, the following will be the accounts of several battles, in which the Frigate John Adams engaged, in as part of Commodore Morris's squadron battling the Tripolitan pirates. The John Adams was under the command of Captain John Rogers, and the the officer in charge of the quarter deck guns was none other than Midshipman Johnston Blakeley, who was later the Corvette John Adam 's first lieutenant under the above recited cruise to Europe under Captain Evans ... In this incident, the Frigate John Adams, in company with the Schooner Enterprize, destroys a 22 gun polacre-rigged corvette of the Tripolitan navy, a tribute gift from France, thought to have been built around 1786. Report of Captain Rogers in his after action letter to Commodore Richard Morris, dated June 30th, 1803. "The Squadron having this moment arrived from the coast of Tripoli, I take the earliest opportunity to inform you in what manner they were employed during your absence, and which I hope may meet you approbation, Previous from the return of the Enterprize from Malta, the John Adams was stationed to the eastward of the town, and the Adams to the westward, at such distance to enable us to distinguish each others signals, and join our operations if it had been necessary. After the Enterprize's return, she was stationed to the Eastward, and the John Adams in the center, abreast the town, and in justice of Captain [Hugh] Campbell and Lieutenant [isaac] Hull, permit me t observe that their vigilance could not be excelled, of course such as to merit your commendation, however, the enemy having only two cruisers at sea, and those in port so closely watched that nothing of importance after your departure, except the destruction of the Bashaw's finest Cruiser, for the particulars of which, I refer you to the extracts of my journal: 'On the 22nd instant, at 1/2 past 7 AM, wind ENE, the Town of tripoli bearing WSW, distant 6 or 7 leagues, , observed the Enterprize in the SSE, with a signal flying, its signification not distinguishable, made sail and stood toward her, at 8 ditto spoke the Enterprize, spoke the Enterprize when Lieutenant Hull informed me that the large ship of the enemy had anchored close in with the shore., at 1/2 past eight ditto, shortened sail and prepared to anchor with springs on our cable, discovering the enemy anchored with springs on his cables in a deep narrow bay, about 7 or 8 leagues to the eastward of town, a situation advantageous to defending their ship, and the same time observed the enemy gunboats beating up to their assistance, and a vast number of cavalry and armed men on the beach.. At 7 minutes before 9 AM, being in 7 fathoms water, and supposing we were in point blank shot of the enemy, commenced firing which they returned, and a constant fire was maintained for forty-five minutes, when the enemy's fire was silenced, at which instance the crew abandoned the ship in the most confused and precipitate manner, for those men as her boats could not carry, jumped overboard and swam to the shore. At this moment, being in a 1/4 less 5 fathoms water, and the rocks appearing under our bottom in every direction round us, I thought it prudent to ware and lay the ship's head off shore, and in meantime ordered Lieutenant Hull to stand close in, as consistent with safety, and amuse the enemy on the beach, until our boats could be hoisted out to take possession. At 1/4 before 10 AM, discovering one of the enemy's boat's returning to the ship (whilst we in the act of hoisting out our boats) [we] tacked and renewed our fire, and in a few minutes after had the satisfaction to see the enemy's colors hauled down, at the same time, firing both their broadsides, which was accompanied by the ship's blowing up with a heavy explosion which burst the hull to pieces, and forced the main and mizen masts perpendicularly into the air 150 0r 160 feet, with all the yards, shroud, stays, etc, belonging to them, This ship was polacre-rigged mounting 22 guns, the largest cruiser belonging to Tripoli, and to appearance, a very fine vessel. From the number of persons land, her crew must have consisted of more than 200 men, and from the advantageous position which she held, added to the shoal-less water outside her, she ought to have annoyed us very much, and have done very considerable damage, yet to the disgrace of Tripoli, we have received no injury. All the men which returned to the ship in the boat were blown up in her, and I have reason to believe the Captain was among that number, several men , which were wounded on the beach, were seen to be carried off by the others, and vast numbers of others must have been killed previous to their abandoning the ship.' ... The loss of [the Bashaw's] most valuable cruiser, must of course do him great injury, and from appearances , I am in hopes that none of our merchant vessels will fall into their hand this summer. The destruction of the aforementioned vessel, altho awful, was one of the grandest spectacles I ever beheld. After a tremendous explosion, there appeared a huge column of smoke, which a pyramid of fire darting vertically through its center, interspersed with masts, spars, sails, rigging, different parts of the hull, etc, and the vessel in an instant dashed to atoms."