American sailing warships with no plans or records

[Talos]

Speaking of Albany's old guns, here's something related. These are the frigate Philadelphia's old cannons recovered in Tripoli.

 

[CharlieZardoz]

So I have a question what led to the change in ship colors from the 1840s to the 1860s and 70s namely the removal of the typical white stripe in exchange for all black sides or with narrow white lines like saratoga. Then some ships like Tennessee who never had a white strip got one added during the 1870s when it seems the navy was going for a more traditinal appearance. But curious if there was a navywide change or did some ships still keep the stripe alongside those who didn't. Was there a system or was it random.

Edited August 10, 2016 by CharlieZardoz

[Talos]

Many ships had the stripe removed during the war to help hide on blockade. With the all-black hull it was much harder to spot the ships in low light. This included ships like Farragut's squadron of sloops and gunboats pulled from the blockade and sent up the Mississippi. They did this back during the War of 1812 as well. I think President had her stripe painted out when she was trying to slip out to see past the British blockade.

 

This wasn't universal though, you can see pictures of Santee and Constitution on training duty at the Naval Academy still having their stripes, so when you get to the 1870s it wasn't that the stripe was brought back, more that they weren't involved in war at the time. You see the short-lived ships built at the end of the war like Congress using it. Macedonian doesn't seem to get her stripe back during the war after her time on the blockade, as seen in photographs, while most of the photos of Pensacola from the war I've seen show her with a stripe. It's possible she kept hers since she wasn't operating close in-shore like other ships.

 

Then sometime by the 1880s they had switched navy-wide to an all-black scheme with a narrow white stripe along the upper hull and a narrow one on the divide between hull and copper. The only exception was Constitution, which I've seen in pictures in the 1880s and 1890s with the stripe still in place, but she was already a heritage ship by that point.

[JerryTodd]

In Moses Safford's diary  "Showing the Colors" Safford mentions "painting ship" about once a year.

 

8/22/62: painting ship

6/26/63: painting ship and tarring rigging

7/27/64: painting ship

 

I recall him mentioning them painting out the white strip with no mention of why other than the captain ordered it so, nor any report of it being painted back on.  She had the stripe when deSimone painted her in 62, and when she arrived at Norfolk in 65.  The index only mentions the three above "painting ship" occurrences from March 62 to February 65, I can't find the specific point the stripe was painted out.

[jbshan]

On her 'round the world cruise (1847?) while in port at Rio, Mad Jack had Constitution painted all white, for tropical conditions.

[Talos]

In my random trawling of the NH&HC site today, I found this beautiful shot of the USS St Louis, the last surviving member of the Boston-class sloops from the 1820s. She was a sistership of both the rebuilt USS John Adams and the famous globetrotting USS Vincennes. There were three designs used for that class, ones by Humphreys, Doughty, and Barker. I might be seeing things, but she reminds me more of the Barker plan than the others. You can see the three designs marked as such in the attachment. Another thing is the number of gunports on the side (filled in with windows). The original ship had a dozen plus bridle ports per side. This has eight, plus bridles. I wonder when she got refitted, because her Civil War armament was 18 guns (4 x 8" shell guns, 12 x 32-pounders and 2 x 20-pounder Parrotts), which would fit that port arrangement exactly.

 

Also a gorgeous picture of St. Mary's. Such a handsome vessel.

[CharlieZardoz]

I do love these charts you do Talos. Keep em coming they give a unique perspective like look at those top 3 erie and grice very wide at the stern while eckford seems wider at the bow. And look how tiny Dale is. Nice to see one Boston class got imaged. So did all 3 designs get used or do we not know which of the 3 became the class?

Edited August 13, 2016 by CharlieZardoz

[Talos]

Thanks, Charlie. I did them for myself originally since I love the side by side comparisons. You can really see things like changes in lines, sizes, detail, etc.

 

Erie was a rebuild of the War of 1812-era sloop and man, she does have a ton of drag. Ended up as a store ship late in life.

 

The next three, designs by Eckford, Grice, and Floyd, were never built, but were proposals that helped shape the Boston class. Eckford's was the original design that started it all, while Grice's was smaller and cheaper. Floyd's was quite a bit bigger, but featured a couple extra guns. The Bostons were never amazing, they were pretty slow due to their hull forms and overloaded. A big part of this was the Navy cheapening out and sticking the Floyd's armament in a hull quite a bit smaller.

 

I’m pretty sure all three were used. Humpreys’ was the main design of course, but Doughty’s was used for the Warren, Natchez, and Lexington. Chapelle notes that Boston and Vincennes were both listed as having a beam slightly narrower than the others, which matches the dimensions of the Barker design, so they might have been that. Chapelle does note that while none of the hulls are really that good (to blunt for good speed), Barker’s stern lines were slightly better than the others.

 

The Bostons and the later 3^rd-class sloops of the Dales were a good showcase for the problems with going cheap when building ships. Dales were tiny, built roughly in the dimension of the War of 1812 original sloop Peacock, but loaded with heavier guns, more boats, more supplies, etc. Chapelle noted that while they were great sailors, and good cheap ships to show the US flag in foreign ports, they were very lightly armed and outmatched even by some European brigs of the era. Better in peacetime than in war.

 

They were originally armed with custom, short 24-pounders that were a unique design. These were pretty conical, with trunnions mounted well below the centerline of the gun. Thomas ap Catesby Jones, uncle of the future CSS Virginia commander from the Battle of Hampton Roads, Catesby ap Roger Jones, was serving as ordnance inspector and he denounced the guns heavily. They were too light and short, weren’t safe to use heavy charges or double-shot. They were all refitted with 32-pounder carronades instead. Two survived the Civil War, and the class ship survived until 1906. We have a couple photos of her. Dale herself was a sail training ship for a long time, which was a role she was well-suited for, being smaller and cheaper to operate but still maintaining a full three-masted ship rig.

 

You can see the difference with Cyane, which was a much more successful design, fast, good sailor, and carried her armament well. That extra tonnage made all the difference. It was an enhancement on the rebuilt Peacock, which was a very sharp design and too overloaded with her as-built armament.  After Cyane, Saratoga was even bigger and a very successful design, so it set the pattern for the 1840s big sloops we were talking about earlier, all of which were successful (except for poor Albany).

 

Speaking of brigs earlier, the Navy had a string of very extreme brig designs in the end. Somers, Bainbridge, Lawrence, Truxton, and Perry were all crazy designs. Lawrence was the big failure, being an extreme clipper shape with an incredible drag to her keel. Her hull was too cramped for enough supplies and she drew a huge amount of water aft. Only lasted a few years before she was sold. Somers was the site of the Somers Affair, the only mutiny in US Navy history, which resulted in the son of the Secretary of War (a midshipman) and two others being hung from the yardarms of the brig. This is what led to the abolishing of the midshipmen training and the founding of the US Naval Academy. She later capsized suddenly a few years later. Her sister, Bainbridge, also capsized later during the Civil War. Truxton was a different design that had to be fitted with lighter carronades than the others. She grounded and was burned during the Mexican-American War. The final one was Perry, which was very active in anti-slavery patrols in Africa, where she could sail in shallower waters. She had a counter stern with a large cabin aft on the gundeck, which meant she couldn’t use stern chasers. Perry lasted through the Civil War and was sold off at the end of it.

 

The unusual brig I wanted to highlight, especially after the Dales, was a never-built brig that was to be named Burrows. She’s unique and much larger than the others, being 126 feet long, nearly ten feet longer than Dale was. Just looking at her hull lines and sail plan, she probably would have been a hell of a sailor. Pierced for sixteen guns, plus chasers, which is 2-4 more than the smaller brigs. Overall just a fascinating what-if ship. You can see her at the bottom of the brig comparison I’m attaching.

[CharlieZardoz]

Lots of fascinating info. The post 1812 sloops/brigs in general are a strange sort as there doesnt quite seem to be a direct evolutionary lineage simply throw it to the wall and see if it sticks approach. If it sticks work off of that. The Lawrence is crazy far more than Somers. I know bluejacket had an old model of the Perry which is how I know of her. Interesting design what makes you call it crazy? Also curious what made cyane such a successful design vs boston being mediocre. Perhaps just a matter of balancing? It seems like the navy tried balancing cheap with effective to cut corners where they could yet ensure a useful ship and part of that was arming them and rigging them as much as possible which made whatever attributes they did have moot. If they kept them as auxillary warships as I imagine they were meant to be some may have been more effective but those extreme designs sheesh.

Edited August 14, 2016 by CharlieZardoz

[uss frolick]

I was looking at that photograph of the cannon, supposedly taken from the burned wreck of the Frigate Philadelphia. There seems to be at least two sizes of long guns - 18 and 9 pounders (?), and what looks like at least one carronade in the back of the pile. (What caliber were the spar-deck chase guns?) If true, then notice that the tubes have minimal re-enforcing rings, as one might expect from pieces cast about 1800, and the upside-down 9-pounder's trunnion on the top of the heap is "hung by thirds". These cannon do look like they had been submerged for a while, as denoted by the light, barnical-like coatings on the barrels.

[Talos]

Lots of fascinating info. The post 1812 sloops/brigs in general are a strange sort as there doesnt quite seem to be a direct evolutionary lineage simply throw it to the wall and see if it sticks approach. If it sticks work off of that. The Lawrence is crazy far more than Somers. I know bluejacket had an old model of the Perry which is how I know of her. Interesting design what makes you call it crazy? Also curious what made cyane such a successful design vs boston being mediocre. Perhaps just a matter of balancing? It seems like the navy tried balancing cheap with effective to cut corners where they could yet ensure a useful ship and part of that was arming them and rigging them as much as possible which made whatever attributes they did have moot. If they kept them as auxillary warships as I imagine they were meant to be some may have been more effective but those extreme designs sheesh.

 

You can see the typical American obsession with speed in these ships too, especially with the shallowness of their hulls and the massive sail plans (seriously, Truxton's is scary-huge).

 

With Lawrence it was the extreme V-shape of her hull. She was the most extreme clipper (as in Baltimore clipper) design ship the US Navy ever built. It was a combination of the stern being way deeper than any other brig (at least as deep as a large sloop of war), and an inability to wedge enough supples in the hull for an overseas deployment that caused the ship to be retired after just a few years. With the other brigs, it was just a general comment on their shallow, sharp hulls and big rigs, especially compared to the previous, deeper USS Dolphin.

 

Cyane had increased length and tonnage that allowed the designer to give her much finer and better lines than the very blunt Bostons. There's a second set of finer hull lines on her plans, it's possible that at the last minute Humphey decided to push a little harder for more speed. She (and Levant) were both faster and better sailors and able to carry their armament even better than the sloops of the 1820s. It's certainly a matter of balance between effectiveness and costs, along with quality versus quantity. If you cheapen out on the ship enough, does it matter if it's not going to stand up to an enemy warship in action?

 

The Navy at the time was also adopting a "peacetime armament" idea, where a ship lands a couple guns in peacetime, usually the chasers.

 

@frolick: Philadelphia carried sixteen 32-pounder carronades as her upper-deck armament in 1803. Before that she carried 9-pounders in her upper works. I had noticed that carronade in back too! The 9-pounder is probably a chase gun.

Edited August 14, 2016 by Talos

[Sam Ladley]

Charlie and Talos, you both are providing great stuff for my Sabine build. I'm done with deck furniture- scratch built the 10 dahlgren guns- now I'm getting to the houses, and the closed bow. Charlie posted some great shots of the Sabine bow. Thanks. By the way, the Sabine's billethead is on display here in Rockland at the Farnsworth museum.

[Talos]

Glad I could help. If you have more questions, please do ask. I enjoy the discussion and the research, it's a lot of fun. Also very glad to see the billethead survived, especially after finding that picture of it mounted on a building at the shipyard. Is it in an indoor or outdoor display?

[Sam Ladley]

i'm building the Sabine to represent the ship that ended up getting scrapped here in Rockland in 1880 because parts of the ship are all over town. The billethead is indoors at the art museum. Some of the hull timbers are in the old marine rail at the snow yard, the gavels at our courthouse are made from Sabine wood, and two of the deckhouses survive. The midship galleyhouse and a queer little wheelhouse looking thing. It seems for the duration of the war the Sabine was flushdeck with house midships and forward. While her sister Santee was armed with two decks full of broadside guns, the Sabine sported for and aft pivots. The Sabine had an interesting "bridge" over the wheel I would assume for officers: 

    After the war she got a poopdeck. I think the funny little wheelhouse in town is one of the pieces from under the poop. I'm still wondering about the stern pivot on the poop roof. in this shot of the Santee (?) look at the pivot in the forground: is that thing sitting on a roof?

[Talos]

Actually, Santee was built with the pivots too. You can see her aft and forward pivot ports in various pictures. Silverstone lists her as being armed from the start with 64-pounder shot and shell guns fore and aft. These were the biggest guns in the inventory by weight at the time, weight 20 cwt more than the early, weak 10” (not the Dahlgren, the Paixhan’s -style gun), 106 cwt total. The X-inch Dahlgren, at least the original model of it, weighs just slightly more at 107 cwt. I did a drawing of it which you can see on the previous page of this thread. It was that big to enable it to fire solid shot, double-shot the gun, etc. The lighter shell guns of the same caliber (8”) were intended to  mostly fire the lighter shells, though they could fire solid shot in a pinch if they had to. The 64-pdrs were limited to only a few ships, mostly these and the paddle-wheel steamers where they needed the extra punch to make up for the lack of guns due to the paddle boxes.

 

Speaking of paddle-wheelers, the bridge on Sabine in those pictures is called a flying bridge. They were an evolution of a bridge structure placed between the wheels of a side-wheeler where a Captain could have a good view. Previously Captains had their spot at the quarterdeck so they could see all of their rigging and sails clearly, but this was becoming less important with steamers. Flying bridges were getting popular in the Civil War era, you can see them on a variety of vessels, including steam sloops and gunboats.

 

With regards to the poop deck and aft pivot gun, that decking is not robust enough to take a X-inch Dahlgren’s weight and recoil. You’ll also notice the dark band on the mast right about level with the railing. That’s where the spanker boom attaches to the mast, there’s zero room for a cannon under it, it’s waist high. The last shot you have is indeed one of Santee when she’s a training ship armed with X-inch Dahlgrens fore and aft and a set of VIII-inch Dahlgrens on her upper deck (plus it looks like a Parrott up front). In this uncropped version of the picture, you can see the pivot wheels for the aft pivot resting on the deck. Also look all the way in front behind the Parrot and you can see the interior of Santee’s forward pivot port.

 

Interestingly, this shot of Santee roofed over only shows the rear pivot port (the double-wide window aft) and blank planking up front. I imagine they replanked that area because the forward pivot port would be a long, structurally weak part to mount the roof on.

 

Here’s a shot of Santee (left) and Constitution during the War. Santee’s forward pivot port is open.

https://www.loc.gov/resource/ppmsca.33945/

 

Found this while I was looking up information today. Apparently one of Sabine’s 6.4” (100-pounder) Parrott Rifles survives in Michigan as a monument. http://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=98250 She might even be the large Parrott rifle we see sticking out of Sabine’s aft pivot port in this picture.

 

http://www.loc.gov/pictures/resource/cwpb.03821/ (be sure to download the full-size picture to zoom in. Also note the Royal Navy paddle-wheeled warship back there with the boats on top of the boxes and that very distinctive mid-century Royal Navy quarter gallery and stern design. You can also see guys standing on Sabine’s flying bridge in that picture, helping you to place it exactly)

 

Random unrelated picture of Saratoga I came across today too.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Talos

[Talos]

A hundred and thirty years ago today, USS Independence was in dry dock at Mare Island. She had been floated in on October 30^th.

 

 

Nearly thirty years later, in 1915, she was burned and scrapped.

 

 

This is an interesting interior view of her during her time as a receiving ship in Mare Island. Note the truss of the large roof built over her, as well as the hammocks stored in the hammock rails and the three light guns in the gun ports. I believe they are Hotchkiss Revolving Cannons, probably in 37mm.

 

 

A nice color shot of her after they painted her light grey. She wasn’t the only receiving ship to be painted this way, USS Dale was as well.

 

 

A nice shot of her stern to round things out. This gives a good look at the molding on her stern and quarter galleries as well as the laurel wreath badges. It also illustrates an interesting quirk in the design. The quarter galleries aren’t level with the upper deck. Rather, they’re placed half a deck lower, which you can see compared to the eight (8!) stern chase ports. As I haven’t seen this on any of the other liners, and the sail plan of Independence shows them lined up with the decks, I believe it’s a result of the razee-ing process. They probably looked awkward so high up, especially compared to normal US frigates which carried them below the level of the spar deck.

 

 

[CharlieZardoz]

A shame she was never preserved. For a time she was one of the oldest surviving ships aside from Constitution and I just find her lines made her such a beautiful frigate.

[Sam Ladley]

This question doesn't belong in this forum, but it follows the string that is here: the navy frigates began getting metal rails and cages over the deck hatches. What color are they? I see the Warrior's are brass, but I doubt the rest were. The Sabine has railing all over the place. It looks light (meaning not black) in photos, but I would assume it was painted rather than kept as brightwork. Any ideas?

[Roger Pellett]

Some time ago as part of a build log of the USS Constitution, someone was building one of these "cages" and doing a beautiful job of it. Actually, I believe that these are frames for supporting canvas canopies for bad weather. He left them as bright brass as they are on the real size USS Constitution today. These ships had very large crews with plenty of time on their hands to polish the brass.

 

Roger

[6ohiocav]

I believe the Constitution build referred to is this one, starting at post 469. Exquisite work indeed.

 

http://modelshipworld.com/index.php/topic/11935-uss-constitution-by-xken-model-shipways-scale-1768/page-24

[Sam Ladley]

Thanks. Amazing build. I love the brass look.

[uss frolick]

Of the detailed 1814 accounting indent for building the USS Frolick in Boston, under the bill "copper, brass and composition" heading is the line:

 

"Stanchions: [Pay to] M. C. Hunniman [for] Brass and Iron stanchions [for] comp'y and gangway ...   $179.00 "

 

Hunniman also provided the Frolick's lightening conductor, " a Brass, Spear and Apparatus" for $84.00.

[CharlieZardoz]

Hello everyone! I would like to take a quick moment to discuss the unidentified 20 gun ship referenced in Chapelle's book. It is used as an example of what some of the subscription and Contracted sloops of 1798 may have looked like. That said it gets a little confusing to me so would like to defer to the great collective wisdoms of this site for clarity.

 

So first off we have the 3 ships Merrimack, Maryland and Chesapeake (which was renamed to Patapsco). All were around 24 guns and all seemed to have quarterdecks. Donald Canney and Chapelle seem to point to the plans below as being a similar example to these ships but can't be them because the plans are dated 1799. We then have ships built by private contractors Connecticut, Portsmouth, Warren and Trumbull. The first seem to be 24 gun sloops while the latter are 20 gun. There was also a brig named Richmond. Descriptions of their carvings have been recorded to varying levels of completeness but no plans however we can assume they were of similar ilk.

 

That's the easy part, next we have a bunch of ships which appear to be purchases.  These ships are the General Washington, Montezuma, Ganges, Adriana renamed Baltimore, another renamed Delaware, Herald and two brigs named Norfolk and Augusta. Of these ships it seems that the General Washington was the largest and most impressive. Also many of the others share commonalities to merchant ships and were likely conversions. Chapelle offers a second plan of a through deck sloop with merchant-like qualities of 18 guns which based on dimensions and design I am assuming could represent what some of these ships looked like.

 

All these ships were essentially replaced in 1801 when the superior(?) Federal and subscription frigates were put into service.

This period is fascinating since so little is known about it (much less than even the subscription era that came afterwards). So let's say one wanted to build a model based off these two plans or of some of these aforementioned sloop (mini-frigates?) how would one go about it? By this I mean lets say I wanted to build Merrimack, Patapsco or Maryland one day using the figure 22 plans as a guide is there enough info to do so? Same with figure 23 could any of the merchant ships look most like that one if any? Could the Warren or Trumbull which had no quarterdeck be examples of such a ship. This is of course all conjectural I'm trying to determine what ships have a decent amount of information preserved vs those which have none.  So lets discuss

[Talos]

I’ve been fascinated with those two particular plans for a while. I included them in one of my profile comparisons, alongside the privateer Rattlesnake and the (incorrect!) Cyane.

 

The 18-gun one is just so weird, compared to the warships I’m used to seeing. More merchant-like for sure, but still too sharp to be a civilian one, too big for an illegal trader. Chapelle argues that she must be a naval or merchant-cruiser. He also suggests that it was a design by Fox because of the nature of her stem.

 

As far as the 20, it’s got the appearance of the typical American frigates of the era. Looking at the plans of John Adams and this ship, they’re virtually identical above the waterline except for size. Chapelle suggests that it was a design for an improved version of Maryland and Patapsco, nearly identical dimensions but with fewer guns and higher gunports to correct the guns on the earlier ships being very low. He also compares the ship to the Brazen-class Cyane post ship, which had more guns on the main deck, but 6pdrs instead of 9pdrs, and was the better sailor because it wasn't as overloaded until the War of 1812 when it carried 32 guns instead. I’ve pointed it out before, but I will again, but Chapelle got the wrong Cyane plans when he sent for them. The ones in the book are the older 18-gun Bittern-class sloop Cyane, not the 26-gun Brazen-class Cyane the Americans captured. Thinking it was the War of 1812 ship, he refitted the drawing with solid bulwarks like most ships of the era received. That’s the plan I have in the comparison I’m linking.

 

As far as the other ships go, Chapelle points out that everything in this era down to sloops tended to be shrunken versions of the 44s, at least above-water style-wise. You can see that comparing John Adams and the 20-gun ship. As long as you get the proportions and dimensions right, you can probably do a fair amount basing off of the 20-gun, Constitution/Constellation/Chesapeake, and the Philly, New York, Boston, and Essex.

Edited December 24, 2016 by Talos

[CharlieZardoz]

Yeah Talos great help with the explanations and diagrams thank you. Seeing them lined up adds so much perspective. That's what Im thinking though some of the ships (as long as the dimensions and ornamentations have been recorded) could be recreated as reasonably accurate models if one chose to do so since they followed that shrunken 44 design for the most part. Id say replicating Merrimack, Maryland or Patapsco is possible (I forget what info exists for which) (paging sir frolick), but then you have other ships like General Washington or Montezuma where replication is probably impossible unless you are John Millar and have that gift lol. But also if you wanted to lets say use these two plans to build two ship models and give them names according to the aforementioned ships which would work best and why in your opinions?

Edited December 24, 2016 by CharlieZardoz

[Talos]

Yeah Talos great help with the explanations and diagrams thank you. Seeing them lined up adds so much perspective. That's what Im thinking though some of the ships (as long as the dimensions and ornamentations have been recorded) could be recreated as reasonably accurate models if one chose to do so since they followed that shrunken 44 design for the most part. Id say replicating Merrimack, Maryland or Patapsco is possible (I forget what info exists for which) (paging sir frolick), but then you have other ships like General Washington or Montezuma where replication is probably impossible unless you are John Millar and have that gift lol. But also if you wanted to lets say use these two plans to build two ship models and give them names according to the aforementioned ships which would work best and why in your opinions?

 

Well, Chapelle was guessing that the 20-gun ship is an improved version of Maryland and Patapsco, soooo..... Merrimack should be pretty easy to do a generic Federal frigate of the era on her dimensions. I'm not sure on the other ships since I have to do some research on them first.

 

And yeah, I do the diagrams because it adds a lot to me too. Really puts things in perspective and makes it easy to compare. If there's any particular ships through Chapelle's books that you want to see lined up, let me know, I have many of them scanned already.

[uss frolick]

That unidentified 20 ship plan has the look of a reduced Essex, me-thinks, especially about the bow, and the body plan, so I wondered if she might not be the USS Merrimack, 1798, who, I believe, was also built by William Hackett of Salem. Totally subjective observation, of course ...

[CharlieZardoz]

Yeah I imagine it's matter of knowing builders inclinations, taking known dimensions and then knowing what was the fashion of the time and putting it all together. Canney also suggests the plan might also be of Merrimack or at the very least a very similar example which with a bit of imagination could come together as a nice model. Talos I'd love to see the brings lined up, specifically a lot of the ones from 1830 onwards when brigs became less of a staple in the fleet, so Boxer, Perry and Lawrence for examples. I've been looking at those old Bluejacket kits that exist of Boxer and Perry one day I'd like to build those so finding those ships of particular interest at the moment.

 

So that said I suppose I should ask what were the identifiable traits to a Fox plan or a Humphrey's plan? Or Hackett or Griece? I imagine there is a design evolution that each follow on their own way (of course some of them were specific to the time they lived) but that'd actually be pretty cool to see how the plans from each builder evolved over the years and what each builder brought to style and structure (sleek or bulky lines, more/less traditional). Interesting stuff!

Edited December 24, 2016 by CharlieZardoz

[Talos]

Yeah I imagine it's matter of knowing builders inclinations, taking known dimensions and then knowing what was the fashion of the time and putting it all together. Canney also suggests the plan might also be of Merrimack or at the very least a very similar example which with a bit of imagination could come together as a nice model. Talos I'd love to see the brings lined up, specifically a lot of the ones from 1830 onwards when brigs became less of a staple in the fleet, so Boxer, Perry and Lawrence for examples. I've been looking at those old Bluejacket kits that exist of Boxer and Perry one day I'd like to build those so finding those ships of particular interest at the moment.

 

So that said I suppose I should ask what were the identifiable traits to a Fox plan or a Humphrey's plan? Or Hackett or Griece? I imagine there is a design evolution that each follow on their own way (of course some of them were specific to the time they lived) but that'd actually be pretty cool to see how the plans from each builder evolved over the years and what each builder brought to style and structure (sleek or bulky lines, more/less traditional). Interesting stuff!

 

Brigs I actually already have you covered. I did two of them, one sheet for the 1830s ships, one for the older ones. The one I'm most fascinated by is the unbuilt USS Burrows, a large, late brig, over 120 feet long. I'll compare some of the frigate body plans later since I can overlay them easily.

[CaptArmstrong]

Very very interesting to see the USS John Adams and the 24 gun ship of 1799 compared! I saw the new reconstructed plan awhile ago, but didn't realize how similar they are until seeing the lineup. I based my in-progress plan of the cut down & lengthened Adams off the 24 gunner-which I do still intend to finish-I've just been incredibly busy with school. I chose the plan for exactly the reasons above-it's the best plan we have of a typical American 6th rate of the period, and the Adams was supposed to be too fine-lined as a 28. Does anyone know how similar the adams & John adams might've been in their lines?