Thinking things through: Scuttles on the deck of British first rates (and perhaps other ships)

[dafi]

In NMM I discovered 2 pair of scuttles on the deck of Victory SLR0512 as planned/build.

 

One pair is behind the foremast, near the waist and one on the quarterdeck a bit aft the mainmast. They are fitted each wich a pair of ringbolts.

 

 

 

What was their purpose?!?

 

 

As they have a certain regular distance to the mast and by the way they are paired, my best and well educated guess is that they are to pass the ropes to the capstans on the lower decks. Pass through for ammunition seems not as plausible in this setup

 

 

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66473.html

 

SLR0512 Scale: 1:60. A model of H.M.S Victory (1765) made entirely in wood that has been painted in realistic colours with metal fittings. [...]

Date made Mid-18th century

 

 

 

Even though the resolution is not too good on the pictures of the model of the Royal George (1756) it could be, that there also is something. Does anybody have better pictures?

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66297.htmlSLR0336

 

 

If one looks at the section, the position makes sense. The capstan in the foremast works well with the bars kept free ...

 

 

... and also explains that the scuttles have to be closer to the mainmast.

 

 

Funnily McKay also indicate some special feature in this area of the deck framing.

 

 

Any more enlightenment or confirmation of this theory?!? Are there any other models or sources indicating this detail?

 

XXXDAn

XXXDA

Edited September 30, 2016 by dafi

[Blue Ensign]

I believe those to be Top Rope scuttles Daniel, I scribed them into the decks on my Victory.

 

Wouldn't normally be in use except when raising or lowering the topmasts.

 

M.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Blue Ensign

[druxey]

I agree with Blue Ensign: these paired scuttles are for the top ropes. The ones on the quarterdeck of the Royal George for the mizen mast are a feature I've not noticed before. 

[dafi]

@druxey

I only have this one picture and it still is a guess. can anybody confirm or correct?

 

In our german forum the opinion still goes towards handling main and fore yard.

 

 

XXXDAn

[trippwj]

Daniel -

 

Here are a couple of relatively contemporary items for your consideration.  Note the model of the Britannia appears to show the same scuttles.  Looking through Longridge and Campbell, I was surprised to not see any indication of the scuttle either in the text nor on the plans by Campbell. 

NMM. 1719. Britannia (1719); Warship; First Rate; 100 Guns - National Maritime Museum. Model, Ship, Wood. National Maritime Museum, Greenwich, London. On loan from the Worshipful Company of Shipwrights. http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/66184.html.

 

 

Note the small opening to the port side of the ladder to the lower deck.

 

 

Not so evident at the foremast, however.

 

 

This may offer a glimpse at the run of the lines. 

 

J. Mynde 1754?. A Ship of War, of the First Rate, With Rigging &c at Anchor. The Section of a First Rate Ship - National Maritime Museum. Engraving. http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/152570.html.

 

[druxey]

Normally the top tackle scuttles were installed only aft of the main mast. These were used when rigging the ship and were associated with the Burton tackles. I suspect the ones for the fore and mizen were only seen on the largest ships. I haven't seen them on contemporary models of the lower rates,

[dafi]

Lost in time ... and found :-)

 

In ...

 

 

Exactely on the same spot as seen on the model of the Vic, this time on a british 74, signed as "Scuttle to Top Tackle"

 

 

 

And even better, the expected "Top Tackle Eye Bolt" is also shown, at the right distance to the capstan :-)

 

 

 

Both finds are 50 years apart, does this mean, that this feature was common for quite a while?

 

XXXDAn

Edited October 12, 2016 by dafi

[druxey]

Yes, this would be a feature needed to haul heavy items up above the lower mast. These might include the tops and any higher item.

[Beef Wellington]

I seem to remember reading somewhere, can't remember where, that the scuttles near main mast also allowed the pump shafts to be installed/removed.  Would welcome confirmation or correction.

[Mark P]

Greetings Dafi;

 

The top ropes were used to raise and lower the topmasts. 

 

Prior to 1800 (according to Lees)  the top ropes were not unrove once the topmast was in position,  but were a permanent feature of the rigging.  This was probably because in stormy weather it was a not uncommon procedure to lower the topmasts to reduce top-hamper,  as shown in several paintings I have seen. 

 

I would imagine that your thought that this is to allow for a lead to the capstan to be quite correct.

 

I have only seen the scuttles before on third rates.  So as Druxey says above,  they probably only appeared aft of other masts on first rates,  although perhaps on second rates also.

 

Thanks for passing on your observations.

 

All the best,

 

Mark P

 

PS:  I always think it is such a shame that the beautiful carved work to the stern and the bows was ripped off just before Trafalgar.  If only they had done it afterwards.  She was a much more attractive ship prior to the alterations.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Mark P

[druxey]

Jason: Scuttles for removal of pump tubes would only be necessary in cases where the quarter deck extended forward of the main mast.