Lateen Rig Questions

[mikiek]

I'm working on rigging for Arrow. This is a 2 masted lateen rig. Instructions are difficult as they just show one side of the fore/aft rigging. I'm assuming all rigging to be symmetrical? If there's something on one side a similar something should be on the other?

 

The ropes that come from the yard to eyelets on the leech, do those terminate at the eyelets? Maybe a big granny knot on the other side? Or do they go thru the eyelet and back up to the yard on the other side?

 

[thibaultron]

Lazyjacks on a modern vessel, run on both sides of the sail, so the rgging would be mirrored on the other side. They are used to shorten the sail, and keep it contained while you do.

[popeye2sea]

The sail would have a bolt rope sewn around the entire perimeter.  It would have cringles (loops) spliced into the bolt rope to take the brails.  The brails were middled and seized to the cringles before leading up on both sides of the sail to the blocks on the yard.  The blocks on the yard shared a strop that was long enough to go around the yard and the blocks and then seizings were put on between the blocks and the yard to hold them in place on the yard.

 

Regards,

[mikiek]

Henry - There is a bolt rope (albeit glued) on the sail. No cringles. I'm not familiar with the term "middled" nor can I find the appropriate definition. The pic of the plans that I posted show 3 blocks that the brails pass thru before going to the leech. Are you saying there would be 3 blocks on the back side as well? So a brail starts at one side of the deck, goes up thru a block, back to the eyehole (cringle), up to a block on the back side and down to the deck?

 

Just curious, if the sail is to be brailed, is that done on one side or the other? Both sides simultaneously?

[davyboy]

Mike.  Middling means if 50ft of  brail rope is req'd on one side you use a 100ft rope fold it in two and sieze it to the cringle at the fold. Yes there is a block on each side of the yard and both sides would be hauled on simultaneously. Methinks the eyelets are a kit invention,nothing about eyelets for brails in any of the books I have. Boltropes and cringles are much stronger than sail canvas.

 

Dave

[popeye2sea]

Thanks Dave.  I do sometimes fall into using the actual terminology to describe things nautical.  I find that nothing else is more concise or better descriptive than the old ways.  And, I also think it raises the level of knowledge of the maritime arts.

 

Regards,

[mikiek]

Thanks Dave, I got it. And I agree, after the explanations here, Amati kinda went in their own direction. Nah, that never happens.

 

Henry, you go right on being nautical. Just bare with me if I have to ask you for clarification. I want to learn the proper terms for things. This kit was no help for that. None of the rigging shown has any sort of name or description. Heck, I had to go look up brail and cringles

[wefalck]

I gather the answer to your question also depends on what kind of vessel and what period we are talking about. Without such information one can only guess, but the real practice may have been rather different.

[mikiek]

Right your are wefalck. Shoulda had that in my OP.  The build is the row galley Arrow circa 1813. It is supposed to be a rendering of the boats used on Lake Champlain.

[wefalck]

I don't know anything about these boats. In general, the details of rigging tend to depend very much on the person in charge of it. So it could be useful to find out more about the background of the people involved, e.g. whether they were American or British, had a RN or merchant navy background, etc. This can give you some hints of the likely practice employed for a given period.

[mikiek]

Well these were American - but Arrow was not an actual boat. This kit is just a representation of the galleys used in the period. The problem they had is no one wanted to be on one. A lot of rowing, not much protection from musket fire. From what I know they tended to fill these boats with crew they DID NOT want on the big boats. Usually captained by a lieutenant or acting officer.

 

However, since I am in charge, I will make a few executive decisions. Sadly, they will be based mostly on looks rather than functionality.

[JerseyCity Frankie]

It's sad how kit manufacturers can't be bothered to work up comprehensive plans. In many cases just a few arrows dotted lines or small inset detail views of a particular aspect of one area or another could remove so much uncertainty.  On the photo above you wrote "tied off on the grommet or run back up other side to the yard" and my two cents is that it's the latter. These are brails in my opinion and they are not for adjusting sail shape while sailing, they are for gathering the sailcloth to the spar for furling. So if you want to gather the material a line that goes all the way around the sail and back to the spar will gather the material. If the line only went to the grommets, only the grommets could be drawn to the spar, leaving all of the bunt or center portion of the sail flapping in the breez.

[mikiek]

JCF - What you're saying makes sense. I am curious though, would these brails just dangle and flap around when not in use? Seems like trying to keep them taught might end up doing bad things to the sail shape.

 

I came across similar situations several times on the fore/aft sails. The shrouds on the leeward side are one example. Depending on how much the sail is let out and/or how far around the yard has rotated the shrouds could really be in the way.

[JerseyCity Frankie]

Yah the crew would have to keep the brails quite loose when underway or they would negatively effect the shape of the sail. But it's still going to be better having the brails since without them the furling would be quite tough. But check out this engraving of guys furling a lateen sail: 

[mikiek]

A pretty scary venture.    Nice drawing.

 

Brails are one thing. The shrouds another. Not sure how they would manage to let a yard(s) out to head downwind. Shrouds are completely in the way.

[thibaultron]

A look at the above picture also answers your shroud question. The shrouds run under the yard, not over it, as in some of your pictures of the model.

[mikiek]

I guess we are the mercy of the kit designers interpretation.  Both Arrow and a larger Xebec  kit show shrouds over the yards.

 

 

 

 

I'm sure there are countless variations of the fore/aft setup.

 

 

[wefalck]

... one is never at the merci of the kit designers (who have to - to be fair to them - find a balance between the amount of work invested in them and the profit they can make from a kit), one can always do one's own research and/or study reputable sources.

[mikiek]

You'll get no argument from me on that. Sadly, there were not that many of these galleys, and as was typical of a lot of U.S. builds in that era, there seems to be no record of plans. They did resurrect one in an archaeological effort. Quite a bit was learned about the hull structure, but almost nil when it comes to rigging.

 

I've done my best to stay with the plans on this build. No redesign or bashing.