1683 Urca Derfflinger by Robert Lamba - Dikar - Scale 1:62 -

[robert Lamba]

how am I doing?

I've made some progress the bends at both stem and stern were a brittle planks kept breaking, splintering or splitting particularly at the stem. Finally solved that by soaking in ammonia and for the more difficult of the two ends, realized late 🙄where the bend begins I could use shorter pieces because they would be hidden. 

Where I stopped now is approximately where the lowest wale runs, I didn't want to go lower until I got some feedback. I can see I'm going to run into crowding issues on the stem and the opposite with the stern.

 

 

Edited March 25, 2019 by robert Lamba
faulty spelling auto correct

[robert Lamba]

I made contact with pirate pete to gather some much needed advice. Put in additional filler blocks between bulkheads that should make the attaching of planks a bit easier in the stem and stern with their multiple compound curves. One side is filled and contoured which took about 6hrs, I made the switch to balsa from hemlock that I had used previously, hemlock is a pain to carve and shape. Not sure as yet if I'll do the center bulkhead on the other side those sections are quite straight and don't have the complex curves to the stem and stern.

 

 

 

[robert Lamba]

I've come across a number of knight-heads on other Derfflinger builds that offer different builders solutions for placement. One builder mounted his on the deck beside the hatch grates. Another mounted his on top of the grate, which looked alright but that doesn't seem a likely position as it wouldn't have any strength on an actual ship. The the third is below deck which presents problems for my experience level when it comes to the final rigging.

 

And then there is the issue of the knighthead itself, are there not actual pulleys inside the knightshead? there is no option for the that in my kit. Without pulleys how do keep the lines from pulling tight to the top of the knighthead, how do I simulate/build a pulley in such a tiny space?

[robert Lamba]

Slow progress, I think I spend ten times as much time looking and pondering my next move than I do working on the ship.

 

I've brought the upper planking down twelve rows and and the lower section up eleven, only 6 more required to close up the hull, but how to proceed with those last six🙄 ?

 

The plans I have show the lower planks curving up into I think what would be called wales at the stem, running beneath two wales running the length of the ship. At least that was my intention. I've been comparing what I've been doing to two other builds of Derfflinger whose builders chose a different approach, eliminating the upward curve of lower planks into the stem and instead ran them straight as possible. Both builders also left of the descending band of wales(?) on the bow, I have no idea why they're quite obvious on the plans.

 

 

[robert Lamba]

My first planked hull! Good learning experience for my next project, I made errors but nothing I can't hide.

 

I've applied two coats of satin varathane to highlight areas that may need more sanding and show the woods actual colour so I can custom match wood fillers to fill small blemishes. The hull below the wales will be painted, the bottom wale covers the seam where the lower planking met the descending planks in the middle

[greatgalleons]

Hi there I'm watching your build with interest because I have this kit.  It has four large sheets of plans and a small booklet with instructions and a separate parts list with wood size and lengths to use.  It's still a bit confusing browsing through it all,  very vague to tell the truth.  The mast and spars wood are all pre cut to length in the kit but I do not see a detailed plans sheet for the mast dimensions and rigging in my kit.  I don't know if I'm missing some more plans or if this is all that's provided.  There is some material to use for making sails but no plans provided to plot out the shapes for the sails.  I think this kit is terribly lacking in instructions to begin with.  Hope to see your progress. 

[robert Lamba]

On 8/19/2019 at 4:00 PM, greatgalleons said:

Hi there I'm watching your build with interest because I have this kit.  It has four large sheets of plans and a small booklet with instructions and a separate parts list with wood size and lengths to use.  It's still a bit confusing browsing through it all,  very vague to tell the truth.  The mast and spars wood are all pre cut to length in the kit but I do not see a detailed plans sheet for the mast dimensions and rigging in my kit.  I don't know if I'm missing some more plans or if this is all that's provided.  There is some material to use for making sails but no plans provided to plot out the shapes for the sails.  I think this kit is terribly lacking in instructions to begin with.  Hope to see your progress. 

I'm being guided through the process by pirate pete I'm learning a lot. If you need advice I'm happy to pass on what I've learned and mistakes I've made. You probably have info that I'd find helpful as well, different minds come up with different approaches and solutions.

[robert Lamba]

I've forgot to update my build progress! Most of my posts have been in 7 pages of conversation with PiratePete.

Here are some photos of progress to date.

[piratepete007]

Robert, looking good and I must say that the wale positioning at the stern and the bow is very impressive. So often, this is a feature that can easily look clumsy on a build. Yours looks pristine.

 

Pete

[robert Lamba]

14 minutes ago, piratepete007 said:

Robert, looking good and I must say that the wale positioning at the stern and the bow is very impressive. So often, this is a feature that can easily look clumsy on a build. Yours looks pristine.

 

Pete

In hindsight that bottom wale sould have curved down a couple mm's in the middle. It was better when I first laid it out before gluing, somehow I lost track of where it should've been.

[robert Lamba]

On 8/19/2019 at 4:00 PM, greatgalleons said:

Hi there I'm watching your build with interest because I have this kit.  It has four large sheets of plans and a small booklet with instructions and a separate parts list with wood size and lengths to use.  It's still a bit confusing browsing through it all,  very vague to tell the truth.  The mast and spars wood are all pre cut to length in the kit but I do not see a detailed plans sheet for the mast dimensions and rigging in my kit.  I don't know if I'm missing some more plans or if this is all that's provided.  There is some material to use for making sails but no plans provided to plot out the shapes for the sails.  I think this kit is terribly lacking in instructions to begin with.  Hope to see your progress. 

You can use the plans themselves for a template of the sails and mast dimensions, it only took me 40 yrs to realize that the plans are actual size of the finished model, lol.

Four sheets of plans is all that came with the kit, plus the materials list and instruction booklet. I lost my instruction booklet a couple decades back along with the parts list, I'm guessing as to what goes where and the construction procedure. I've had to backtrack and guess at a lot of what I've done. Pirate Pete has helped enormously. If you want to share photos of your parts list and instruction booklet it would be a great help to other Derflinger builders.

[robert Lamba]

Personal tragedy, motor cycle rebuild(my other hobby) distracted and competed for my time putting my Derfflinger build on the shelf. Now Covid19 pandemic and loss of job, completed motorcycle have given me lots of free time. I should be able to complete the build before the lock down is lifted, and at my age without a vaccine I'll be spending a lot of my free time at home.

 

With the lack of accurate  historical plans I switched directions with Derfflinger I've decide to to reflagg it as a VOC trader. Doing this loosens the rules and simplifies the design, there is no right or wrong as each fluyt built was different modified by the Master ship builder of the time. I only feel the need now to be period correct and not restricted to plans drawn up some 70yrs ago that may or may not be accurate.  Here's where my build is at today.

 

Fluyt trivia...fluyt is usually translated as flute, a musical instrument which didn't make much sense to me when referring to a ship. But there is another translation for the dutch fluyt, glassware. The fluyt when seen in cross section has the same big bottom shape as the glassware.

[flying_dutchman2]

How did I miss this one. This Fluit is looking very good. I like you clean lines on the planking. 

Ab Hoving would be a very good source of information on building this ship. 

 

Marcus 

[robert Lamba]

12 minutes ago, flying_dutchman2 said:

How did I miss this one. This Fluit is looking very good. I like you clean lines on the planking. 

Ab Hoving would be a very good source of information on building this ship. 

 

Marcus 

Thanks, This my first large build I had no idea what I was getting into. I've had some good guidance from Pirate Pete when I run into something I don't know how to deal with. My only previous experience with wooden ships is a solid hull Urker only 12" long.

 

I'm flying blind otherwise, built from a Spanish kit maker Dikar that went out business decades ago, no instruction booklet, a set scale prints, pictures from the internet, trial and error and many hours just staring it from every angle looking for solutions.  This week will all be focused on the beakhead and and assembling the rails. Once I get past that the end is in sight, the rigging looks intimidating but I suspect it's more tedious than difficult.

[flying_dutchman2]

Robert, 

Here is a link https://www.modelships.de/Fluyt-Zeehaen/Fluyt-Zeehaen.htm

from a site of models made by professionals. The link shows the Zeehaen (which I am building) .

 

If you have any questions, I might be able to answer those. 

On a Dutch site modelbouwforum.nl there are several modelers that have built fluits. Look under the thread called 

"Bouwverslagen historische schepen" 

Marcus 

[robert Lamba]

Upper rails for the beakhead delicate, gluing the curved section with a straight piece that would need to be bent. My first attempt with glue failed almost instantly as I expected it would, 4mm x 4mm contact area isn't sufficient. I drilled a hole into each piece and used gorilla glue to fix a brass wire into each hole. Much stronger, now I'll be able to apply some heat and shape them into position. The difference in wood colours will probably look odd if I left them clear or stained, I may paint them with a gold leaf.

Edited April 11, 2020 by robert Lamba
added info

[robert Lamba]

Even after 6 months of soaking in ammonia and using a heated plank bender the curved bottom sections of the railings were still monsters to shape.

I've no idea what type of wood it was but I think steel is easier to bend, I've spent at least 12 hrs bending and fitting those six pieces into their final position.

[piratepete007]

Robert - when you say 'ammonia', what were you actually using ? I had a similar piece of timber soaking (and forgotten about) for approx. 12 months. When I pulled it out of the ammonia solution that I was using, I formed a rough loop and tied the crossed-over ends like a bow !

[flying_dutchman2]

Gentlemen, 

Ammonia is a Big NO-NO in making planks bendable. 

 

Technical background. 

Wood is made up of cells that have lignin, which is a complex organic polymer deposited in the cell walls of many plants, making them rigid and woody.

 

Ammonia reacts with the lignin by making the cell walls mushy. It destroys the cell walls of the wood and over time warps the model. Your plank falls apart. Just think of what happens to all the planks of your model. 

 

Marcus 

 

 

 

[robert Lamba]

I shaped all my hull strakes with ammonia, as I had tough bends at both ends of the ship I'd need stand one end in the jug of ammonia shape that with the heated plank bender, then repeat the process for the other end. Soaking time depended on the severity of the bend, soaking time up to two weeks for the more severe bends. The wales were very resistant to bending into shape.

 

For the railing material, 6 months soaking did no damage to wood, when left to dry it returned to it's previous iron hard state in less than a day. The only noticeable lasting effect was the wood became very dark.

 

 

[piratepete007]

Good update Robert and thanks for the info. 

5 hours ago, flying_dutchman2 said:

Ammonia is a Big NO-NO in making planks bendable. 

 

Technical background. 

Wood is made up of cells that have lignin, which is a complex organic polymer deposited in the cell walls of many plants, making them rigid and woody.

 

Ammonia reacts with the lignin by making the cell walls mushy. It destroys the cell walls of the wood and over time warps the model. Your plank falls apart. Just think of what happens to all the planks of your model. 

 

After reading the above quotation, I was reminded about this argument that pops up from time to time. As a chemist, I appreciate the points being made but believe the ammonia reaction is extremely slow and soaking for a week or two will only partially change the lignin structure without any overall long-term damage. My approach is to lift the strips out of the aqueous ammonia after a week and to then place them into a previously contoured timber press that has curves slightly stronger than that required. There they sit for a few weeks - although I have used a warm oven to accelerate the process.

 

I went and checked on ship of mine that had had some curves created by the above process approx. 10 years ago and everything looks fine. Using ammonia solution on wales and rails yes but not for general planking.

 

Pete

[flying_dutchman2]

I built only Dutch ships and they are known to have bluff bows. Presently building a Fluit. Towards the stern the wood bends both ways. All I use is water and when I really have trouble, heat, but that is rare. I soak the heck out of them, sometimes for weeks. 

But this is my method and we all have different methods. Whatever works. 

Marcus 

[robert Lamba]

Here's a issue I've discussed with Pete on our PM's I should've included it here. It's a small issue that anyone but us would notice but it really annoys me.

 

It's cannon/grate proximity conflict, as you can see from the picture rolling the cannon back to load would be impossible.

The best solution is to have spotted the issue early on made a narrow deck opening but that option set sail long ago.

 

Pete pointed out that the prints drawn up probably didn't allow for that and the hatch/grate should've been narrower allowing the cannon to be rolled back.

 

I did come across another build with the same issue, the builder in that situation built a platform for the cannon that was raised to the height of the grate and designed the platform so that water on the deck would be free to pass below it.  It seems like a practical real life solution solution but was it ever done???

 

Pete suggested lowering the grate to where it would be flush with the deck, being on the upper deck it wouldn't have the water issues like on the main deck. That's probably valid but in NW europe where Fluyts sailed extremely heavy rains are an issue, as well on the VOC trade routes and the monsoon rains of SE Asia. A raised grate can be covered and secured against heavy rains whereas a flush grate could be a serious problem.

 

Both solutions would work while neither may be historically accurate, which is the best of two not ideal solutions? I suppose it may be the one that bothers me the least.

 

I probably fret the small stuff too much🙄

 

 

 

 

[piratepete007]

Maybe Marcus could make a comment here about the guns being on the main deck in what looks like an improbable position ? I believe these decks were deliberately narrow to lessen the tax imposition by certain countries based on a ship's main deck area. That then makes me wonder whether any guns were placed on this deck at all ? I came across this drawing of a Dutch fluyt which could support my suspicions. Just throwing that idea in for discussion.

[flying_dutchman2]

Too many guns on that drawing. Someone had a dream and put it on paper. The average amount of sailors on a Fluit was around 20 and usually they all came from the same town. Narrow decks were for less toll. 

 

Some fluits had 6 to 8 canons, most had only a few. They sailed in convoys and were protected by war ships. I would not place those canons where they are now. There must be other places on the decks where you can put them without interference from the grate. 

 

Marcus 

[piratepete007]

Robert,

The 'ship has sailed' as you said but the attached diagram is a definite possibility (locating from the quarter to the focsl'e deck). A much earlier input from Marcus would have steered both you and myself in a better direction !

 

Pete

Edited April 15, 2020 by piratepete007

[robert Lamba]

23 hours ago, flying_dutchman2 said:

Too many guns on that drawing. Someone had a dream and put it on paper. The average amount of sailors on a Fluit was around 20 and usually they all came from the same town. Narrow decks were for less toll. 

 

Some fluits had 6 to 8 canons, most had only a few. They sailed in convoys and were protected by war ships. I would not place those canons where they are now. There must be other places on the decks where you can put them without interference from the grate. 

 

Marcus 

yup, failure on my part part to think outside the box...great suggestion but too late😂

[robert Lamba]

On 4/14/2020 at 6:06 PM, piratepete007 said:

Robert,

The 'ship has sailed' as you said but the attached diagram is a definite possibility (locating from the quarter to the focsl'e deck). A much earlier input from Marcus would have steered both you and myself in a better direction !

 

Pete

I'll write that up as learning experience for me. I intended to think outside the box but I'm still locked into following  rigid rules assembly.

When I assemble my motorcycles there's no such options it's either assembled the right way or the get yourself killed way.

 

If I had seen his suggestion earlier I could've done it easily, now I have to think hard if I want to backtrack and disassemble what I've just completed. I attached the deck railings, 18 hrs of  cutting and shaping minuscule balustrades.😢 They were supposed to be made of the same iron hard wood as the upper and lower rails but I gave up after the third balustrade, it was just too hard and don't think there was enough material to complete it. So I switched to the white wood in the photo,  it gives an interesting colour contrast without paint.

Edit: looking at the plans there is a considerable amount of rigging on the fore deck while probably not impossible to relocate cannons there, it is problematic for my skill level. So I'll be pondering the other two options we discussed.

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by robert Lamba
additional info

[flying_dutchman2]

Most mechanical objects follow strict protocol in building / rebuilding. You can't improvise. You do that, you get hurt or you die. What type of motorcycles do you build? 

 

You must have glued the canons on the deck. Oh well. All together the fluit looks great. 

Marcus 

[robert Lamba]

Cannons aren't glued in, I shouldn't need to do that once they're secured with lines.

 

Four years ago I restored a vintage motocross racer a 1976 AW440cr, pretty to look at but with my knees I was never going off road riding again so I sold to a private museum two years ago.

 

Six years ago I restored a 1979 Honda CBX 1050 , I've owned since new 42 yrs this summer. Still modifying and tinkering with it, optimizing the handling. 

 

My current project is a 1984 Suzuki GSX1150ef, I've been restoring and modifying it for the last 3 years. I fully restored it then I decided to modify it's appearance to my own taste. Now I'm improving the handling and power output, it's going to be a monster. Another two or three winters before I'm done.

 

Future projects if I can persuade the owners to part with them, my niece has 100km 1974 Yamaha RD250 it's been in a barn since '74. A neighbour has a late 90's 600 Ducati Monster. Either one would be great fun.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by robert Lamba
added info