Oseberg Viking Ship by liteflight - Billing Boats - 1/25 Scale - 9th Century

[bigpetr]

Skuldelev ships timber originats like this:

 

Skuldelev 1 - Norwegian ship

Skuldelev 2 - Irish ship

Skuldelev 3 - Danish ship

Skuldelev 5 - Danish ship

Skuldelev 6 - Norwegian ship

[Binho]

17 hours ago, liteflight said:

And thinking of oak, and the recovered Viking ships.  We know the dates when the timber was felled, but does anyone know WHERE the oak came from?  Dendrochronology would identify the area.  (Ah, yes, one of the Skuldelev ships was made from Irish Oak)

bigpetr is right on the provenance for the Skuldelev ships. For the Oseberg ship, the oak appears to be from western Norway, and not local to the immediate area the ship was buried. The presence of beech in the ship might narrow it's construction location in western Norway even more, to just north of Bergen, where there is the only beech wood in that area. This is roughly the same area the two later Skuldelev ships from Norway were built. You can read more here, pg. 6 talks about the Oseberg ship building location.

 

17 hours ago, liteflight said:

When I was a  nipper I was taught that common or

pedunculate oak (Quercus robor) was a Roman import to Britain, and is a Mediterranean native.  This is not necessarily literally true, but even if it was, there would still be time to grow a lot of oaks in the areas of Roman occupation (basically up to the Rhine) in time for late viking shipbuilding.

That's interesting! I don't believe this view is true anymore. From pollen samples in British bog sites it seems most of Northern England, Wales, and Southern Scotland was Oak-Hazel woodland.  Woodland clearance rates seem to have peaked in the Early Iron Age, well before the Romans arrived. By the Roman period, only about 50% of the woodlands survived (in fact, Caesar mentions how intensively farmed southern England was in his writings). It doesn't seem the Roman occupation caused any more extensive deforestation than before. By the Norman arrival woodland cover was only 15%, and by the Black Death it was 10%. Good summary here. It's actually increased since then! But a lot of that is managed woodland, especially fast growing pines.

 

[Louie da fly]

On 8/11/2020 at 6:34 AM, Binho said:

Good summary here

That's fascinating, Binho. I had no idea Britain was so intensively farmed that early. I've bookmarked that site so I can read it again at my leisure.

[liteflight]

Thanks, Binho

That's very interesting and blows into the weeds at least one thing I was taught as a nipper.  I am reading the Woodland treatise with interest - thanks for posting it.

 

I have also been reading material about the Skuldelev ships (and other finds from this era) and would not have asked about where the oaks grew if I had done my homework.

 

I can see that I will finish up with a splendid static Ship and a store of knowledge.

 

Shield colours:  Yet to be faced! 

My top-of-the-head feeling about 11thC paint is that it would have been prone to being scuffed, fading in sunlight (remember sunlight, anyone in the southern continents?) and would have started out matt (because the pigment particles would probably have been in a range of sizes) and become more matt with time. 

So the array of shields would have been faded, muted, matted and non-bright

 

I still have to read and digest the colour information the Binho posted in his build log (sorry, havn't succeeded in "quoting " this here, but I will)

Found a useful resource from the Danish National Museum. The actual scientific article is only in Danish, but there is a good article on Science Nordic about it in English, including a color palette with a description of each pigment and the presumed relative cost. 

 

https://sciencenordic.com/denmark-history-society--culture/how-to-decorate-like-a-viking/1455997

 

 

[Louie da fly]

5 hours ago, liteflight said:

So the array of shields would have been faded, muted, matted and non-bright

Most likely, but probably best not to overdo it. They were very enthusiastic about colour, and it's possible they'd re-paint the shields if they faded.

[liteflight]

“Everything in moderation; including moderation” is my watchword.  
 

Thank you Stephen.  I have taken note of your excellent and assiduous rowers and their different, but muted garments.  Yes, I know that dyes and pigments are different in type, but I expect to be aiming for a range  of cheerful, artistic and potentially authentic colours on the shields, and possibly as accents elsewhere.

 

Currently I have no plans to carve a crew of rowers, but I would love to learn a new skill.

Speaking of rowers and seating; when I commenced Osberging I had believed that Viking crews sat on their sea chests (probably, I thought, on a sheepskin to minimise chafing and saltwater sores). I did not even know that there was a debate about it!
 

“If you can’t measure it, it’s an opinion”. Probably Lord Kelvin.  It sounds like his delicate, diplomatic tones.

Today I have been trying to measure how much of a problem to expect with rogue glue.  I put large globs, smears, Fingerprints,  dots, etc on an edge of the Ply sheet where the strakes are nested.  I also tried my usual cleanup of a wet cloth to remove recent glue.  Glue is Titebond original

 

Bother, the iPad operates completely differently and rotates the iphone pictures.  I post more explicable pictures when I get to my laptop

I  also made a blended-wing aircraft for indoor flying when my copy of Aeromodeller arrived and inspired me

Well, who knew? The resident format of two of the pics has led to them being rotated 90 degrees, but not the one with the plane in it.  I will rectify ASAP

 

Tentative conclusion on glue.  It will be a problem, but not insoluble, if I stain after assembly. Staining before assembly is the better plan, but demands that I plan ahead enormously.

So I aim to stain everything, and let it dry completely before assembling.  I will still remove as much glue as possible while it’s wet, but not fash mysel’ too much if some glue has to be removed

Rubbing alcohol Works as well on globs of glue as it does on mistakes!

[Louie da fly]

11 minutes ago, liteflight said:

Rubbing alcohol Works as well on globs of glue as it does on mistakes!

Well, all I can say is "Every day, if you are not careful, you learn a new thing"

 

So, does this apply to staining where there is a glob of glue? Does preparing the surface with rubbing alcohol avoid that horrible patchiness caused by the glue when you apply the stain?

[liteflight]

Hey, Stephen, that’s a good saying!

 

I have a friend and former colleague who uses it in the Slovenian language.  Guttural but still true

[KrisWood]

On the topic of shields, here are plans for the "shield keeper" (actually what it's labelled in the drawing) from the museum photo portal:

 

http://www.unimus.no/felles/bilder/web_hent_bilde.php?id=9548439&type=jpeg

 

and where it goes on the ship as a whole:

 

http://www.unimus.no/felles/bilder/web_hent_bilde.php?id=12384240&type=jpeg

 

While it doesn't show much of the "shield keeper" here's the second page of that last one just in case it might be useful for other parts:

 

http://www.unimus.no/felles/bilder/web_hent_bilde.php?id=12384241&type=jpeg

[liteflight]

Thanks, KrisWood

 

That will be helpful as I make progress (which seems to be a long way ahead)

 

I am trying to work out wth the billings designer intended with the scrollwork panels.  I will , of course, be guided by the excellent work of Von Kossa and JackP.

Clearly I cannot fit the scrollwork right now, unless I remake the inverted jig - which would not be difficult.

 

I think and hope that a tiny part holds the key to progress.  

The prow and stern are right now 6mm thick (4mm core ply plus 1mm each side)

The scroll panels are each 2.1mm thick.  Where they join above the prow/stern they would therefore be 4.2mm thick and would either be rounded off or squared and veneered.

 

The little key piece (no 10d)  is laser cut from 4mm ply, and is shown on the "instructions" as being tapered to a point at the upper end.

This (to me) suggests that the 1mm ply doublers are to be removed in the area of the scroll panels (and others have said this too) so that they are glued to the core 4mm ply prow/stern.  Then the piece 10d allows the scrolls to be glued together.

 

 

But this plan extract clearly shows the ply doublers still in place!  Which is probably why several people have reported thinning the scrollwork ply to enable it to fit without becoming excessively thick.

Can anyone make sense of the sketch at bottom centre?  I must be obtuse, but I find these sketches completely inexplicable! 

 

After all this thought and angst I realise that I would have been better off just building the ship.  This is really my first boat kit, and I am accustomed to scratch-building without confusion from Danish sketchers

 

[Louie da fly]

While it can be risky to go against the kit instructions (as I've discovered to my cost in the past), sometimes they are just plain wrong, and you have to weigh up what is the best thing to do when confronted by conflicting information. 

 

Regarding the sketch, it seems to me that it shows the scrollwork having splayed edges as received, and that you should cut the edge to a right angle - or even to a slightly acute angle - before fitting to the model. Would this make sense? There aren't any photos of the scrollwork in your log, so I don't know if it's supplied loose or if it's laser cut from a sheet. If the latter, I'd expect the edges to already be square.

 

Regarding the doubling, perhaps the shaded sketch at the top is a sectional view which shows the doublers being tapered down towards the ends? (assuming that's what it's supposed to represent - there's no label on it). But if so, what's that long slot running down the centre? If you compare that picture with the model, it might give some insights . . . perhaps the slot is where the keel goes? (working completely in the dark here as I can't look at the bits and pieces).

[liteflight]

On 8/12/2020 at 6:50 PM, Louie da fly said:

So, does this apply to staining where there is a glob of glue? Does preparing the surface with rubbing alcohol avoid that horrible patchiness caused by the glue when you apply the stain?

I can answer that with (a little) experience, Stephen

Yes!

Now the footnotes:

A) the Weldbond had hardened for only a day

b) I scraped the globs off then used rubbing alcohol to remove the residue

C) Pic below shows pretty good success

 

 

Just for comparison here is the Rogues gallery reproduced the right way up and with some added explanation

Most of the ways of adulterating wood with Weldbond are attempted

 

Sorry about the quality of the photo.  its clearer in oblique evening light.

 

I have decided to keep posts shorter and (nearly) on one topic!

[Louie da fly]

Thanks Andrew. I'll keep this tip in mind.

[liteflight]

On 8/13/2020 at 2:58 PM, Louie da fly said:

While it can be risky to go against the kit instructions (as I've discovered to my cost in the past), sometimes they are just plain wrong, and you have to weigh up what is the best thing to do when confronted by conflicting information. 

 

Regarding the sketch, it seems to me that it shows the scrollwork having splayed edges as received, and that you should cut the edge to a right angle - or even to a slightly acute angle - before fitting to the model. Would this make sense? There aren't any photos of the scrollwork in your log, so I don't know if it's supplied loose or if it's laser cut from a sheet. If the latter, I'd expect the edges to already be square.

 

Regarding the doubling, perhaps the shaded sketch at the top is a sectional view which shows the doublers being tapered down towards the ends? (assuming that's what it's supposed to represent - there's no label on it). But if so, what's that long slot running down the centre? If you compare that picture with the model, it might give some insights . . . perhaps the slot is where the keel goes? (working completely in the dark here as I can't look at the bits and pieces).

Steven.

Warm thanks for your time and good sense in making this helpful response

The kit really doesn't have conflicting instructions, really none at all relating to the ply scrollwork apart from the wee sketchie I reproduced

 

This is the two pieces of the 3-ply scrollwork (2.1 mm thick) laid roughly in place over the ply doublers already fitted in accordance with the build book.

 

When I am finished with this build the "book" will be filed in our extensive library next to the Greek Ferry Timetables* in the Fiction section

 

*borrowed from Douglas Adams, author of the (increasingly inaccurately named) Hitch Hikers Guide to the Galaxy Trilogy

 

Howsomever, I have decided what I am doing!

1. I will remove the prow and stern doublers 
2. Fit the Scrollwork - possibly having reduced them to 2-ply (1.4 mm thick)
3. Vertically extend the turnover jig to allow for the additional height (to avoid wiping off the delicate scrollheads)
4. Stain keel , frames
5. Fit frames
6. Plank

 

 

 

[liteflight]

This is my euphorian day,
I will ring welkins and before anybody answers I will run away

Ogden Nash, "No doctors today - thank you"

 

Seems appropriate, as I have just made useful progress with Oseberg.

All the woodworking glues are dissolved by Isocol (iso-Propanol) I read on MSW.

So, having decided to remove the ply doublers round the prow and stern I had a bash at softening the (weldbond) glue with Isocol. 

Since the doublers form a gutter I ran Isocol into it and left the joint with a reservoir of Isocol for an hour.  

No noticeable softening or loosening of the joint

Now I had read somewhere recent (and Authoritative!) that all the woodglues are softened by heat so I lit up the Iron and had all 8  doubling pieces removed in about 10 minutes

 

Maximum heat setting, max steam

The paper that everything is sitting on is Baking paper, which I folded over and ironed through to prevent the sole of the Iron from getting clarted up with Weldbond (even though I KNOW  now how the remove it)

One lesson from this exercise is that a tool more heat resistant than my thumb is a good plan to winkle to parts apart.  Guess how I discovered that one!

 

So  - while feeling successful and Euphoric ; I heated and manipulated  the bent prow piece till the ply was straight !

 

So the whole keel has gone back into the jig to cool and settle

 

Obvious thought

The parts could have been added just as easily by coating with glue, allowing to dry then ironing them in place!  might be useful where a dry process is preferred - perhaps to avoid globs of glue!

Might be a good way to go clinker planking on Osebergs!

 

[Louie da fly]

Well, I'm glad you've worked out a sequence of actions. Did my suggestions make any sense at all?

 

Just be aware that the figurehead on the actual ship isn't squared off, and in fact it's in the form of a serpent, head and all. And the other end is the tail.

 

 

 

 I think the first photo is quite instructive as to the actual form and layout of the decoration. The source I got the second photo from (Pinterest, I'm afraid) had a note that the figurehead had been "restored" (which could mean anything, I suppose - depends on the condition the figurehead was in when found). But when uncovered the ship looked like this:

 

 

 

Presumably the figurehead was somewhere among the spoil pile . . .

 

PS: I grew up with the Ogden Nash book "Versus". It contained such gems as the poems about Isobel and Pendelson Birdsong (a wise child - he knew his own father), and of course the animal poems - "Who wants my jellyfish - I'm not sellyfish" and "The camel has a single hump, the dromedary two: Or else the other way around - I'm never sure, are you?"

 

[Edit: You're probably already aware of the discussion on the Oseberg ship going on at 

[/Edit]

 

[liteflight]

In preparation for fitting the frames to the keel, I have been carrying out the preliminary work which I vowed I would do before the ship was too far assembled.

One area to prepare for is the Access holes , both bow and stern in the final frames, which are 4mm plywood

So that all the cut edges would have to be veneered

 

THINKS  I have a thermostatic soldering iron which would be promising to veneer with in small spaces!

 

Here are the two frames in question, pierced and with a piece of venetian blind let in because

A) the ply was getting too thin at the top of the frame

b) I needed a deck support for the small decks in the prow and stern

 

Good News, the venetian blind material turns out to be close grained, pale wood, and with the distinctive aroma of a cedarwood! 

 

Veneering of the exposed ply edges is now happening.  

I have reverted to PVA diluted 30% with water for veneer adhesive.  It is reluctant to "wet" freshly sanded ply so a couple of drops of washing liquid will be added to help this.

 

The Left Hand frame in the picture above has a continuous bit of veneer applied, and clearly it will follow all the contours, both positive and negative.  This is glueing, but I intended to use the soldering iron to attach the veneer (having applied PVA and allowed it to dry.

 

Needle top PVA bottle just visible at the top of the picture

This was originally a bottle of low-temperature gun oil that I used to lubricate my CO2 engines for model flying.  I believe that such oil is now available for paintball guns, which have the same problem of low temperature lubricity.

 

I will not be veneering the rest of the frames because they have cutouts in them for longditudinal stiffeners, and I would like the veneer to be continuous

 

 

 

[liteflight]

Steven

 

Many thanks for the great photos of the carved ends.  The wonderful Celtic patterns are clear, and it leaves me wondering just how to reproduce them better next time.  My wife (and Admiral) loves to draw Celtic patterns  and all things miniature, so I wonder----

No that's as unlikely as anyone carving 256 individual Byzantine rowers!

I followed the thinking of Von Kossa and Jack P when they reached that stage of the build.  Whether to round, whether to continue the patterns around the rounding.

 

I'm thinking, I'm thinking🙃

I have laser-equipped friends.  I'm not sure that ablation is the best way.  Rather suspect that micromilling is the better option (and just today I read an Instructable on how to make a 3-axis mill into a 5 axis one)

 

I learned poetry (and Ogden Nash) from my Mother.

"Shake and shake the Ketchup bottle

None'll come and then the lot'll"

 

 And I love his deep knowledge of the language, and then lovingly mangles it:

"you want some flotsam:  I gotsam

You want some jetsam:  I can getsam"

 

 

 

[Louie da fly]

Looking good, Andrew. Nice that the venetians have turned out to be useful. We threw out a whole bunch of these at one point, but I think they were MDF. 

 

I'm not sure which are the access holes - are they the ones the red fabric is draped through? And are these frames the same ones you can see right up at the bow in the top photo of the ship itself , or are they the second frames that support the back of the small decks?

 

Lubricity? Yes, I know what it is, but I would probably have said viscosity, though if it's for lubrication I suppose that's a more appropriate word . . . 

[liteflight]

Good question, Steven

I will go back round this, but I think it’s ok.

No worries if it ain’t!  I will just have an under deck void and some useful practice

 

still euphorian!

[Louie da fly]

1 hour ago, liteflight said:

The wonderful Celtic patterns are clear

No, not Celtic! This is an early Viking style - gripping beasts, not knotwork.  (Though perhaps Celtic-influenced). Back in my re-enactment days I did a bit of knotwork. It's amazingly difficult to get it all to work together, and just as you think it's all ok you find this piece of tendril is supposed to go under that piece but goes over instead, and there's no way you can fix it without starting all over again!

 

1 hour ago, liteflight said:

that's as unlikely as anyone carving 256 individual Byzantine rowers!

Oh, come on now. Only 48, really!

 

1 hour ago, liteflight said:

"Shake and shake the Ketchup bottle

None'll come and then the lot'll"

We still say that in my family. And I love

 

"God in His wisdom made the fly

And then forgot to tell us why."

[KrisWood]

The figurehead was found in fragments near the bow, like this:

 

http://www.unimus.no/felles/bilder/web_hent_bilde.php?id=9487075&type=jpeg

 

They reconstructed it based on the curves of the fragments then guessed at the details on the missing parts. I've never seen any indication that the tail portion on the stern was found.

 

Meanwhile I found a drawing by the original conservator of how the shields would have looked on the rail:

 

http://www.unimus.no/felles/bilder/web_hent_bilde.php?id=9530088&type=jpeg

 

[liteflight]

KrisWood

Thanks very much for finding these.  The serpents head is particularly fascinating, so that we can see how much interpretation goes into a reconstruction.

 

I haven’t allowed myself to think about the shields yet.  There is the practical issue that I won’t use the supplied shield boss, which I suspect is a glass bead and a small nail.  
No!  

Even if I can accept the laser-cut shield made of ply, I would want at least a hand hold (not sure what to call it ) and a hollow boss.

 

I’m following your progress with interest.  While looking for something else I found a good photo of a keel with its “wings” for the garboard strake which varied in angle from near horizontal amidships to parallel to the keel at the scarf joint with the carved stem and stern timbers.  I’m sure you have progressed well beyond that digitally

[liteflight]

12 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

14 hours ago, liteflight said:

that's as unlikely as anyone carving 256 individual Byzantine rowers!

Oh, come on now. Only 48, really!

Peccavi!
I have been told a million times not to exaggerate

 

On the subject of the Scrollwork carvings.  Yes, as you say they are Viking style with intertwingled beasts.

How would it be if they were cut through in veneer ( or metal) and laminated onto a suitable backer sheet.  I can see that being far superior to the current laser-marked creations, and perhaps with a little hand-rounding could be made excellent.  My friend with several YAG lasers could do these in any metal, but regrettably not wood.  We know because we tried.
There are many firms, including several in Melbourne who will make greetings cards in real wood veneer which is, I think generally about 0.6 mm thick. (.024”), but some of them go down to 0.2mm. Hmmm, worth a further thought.

 

While using these un-natural measurements foisted upon us by Buonaparte ( he has a LOT to answer for, including driving on the wrong side of the road). It did pass through my mind that at 25 :1 scale it means that 1mm on the model is 1inch on the real ship! 
Or an Imperial foot on the ship is 12 mm on the model

[liteflight]

14 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

'm not sure which are the access holes - are they the ones the red fabric is draped through? And are these frames the same ones you can see right up at the bow in the top photo of the ship itself , or are they the second frames that support the back of the small decks?

 

Lubricity? Yes, I know what it is, but I would probably have said viscosity, though if it's for lubrication I suppose that's a more appropriate word . . . 

Steven, your question made me think.

this is a healthy thing, and probably very good for me

 

In this matter of the strange access holes I had been guided by Von Kossa who pierced the holes when completing the decking

 

so I think I have perforated the correct frame.  Still think it’s a strange place to have an opening, but probably there was so much water everywhere it made little difference.

  I imaging bailing was a way of life, and would be very surprised if some kind of shaped bailers were not found, perhaps left under the floorboards

 

[KrisWood]

Yes, bailers were found on the ship. 🙂

[liteflight]

Thanks, KrisWood

 

I have just been reading about them.  I should look before I post

 

Erratum:     Glue

I have been calling the glue I have been using Weldbond, and it really is Titebond Original

I rather doubt if there is very much real difference - but I should still get it right; it might matter to somebody

 

My diluted PVA glue for attaching veneer has been dosed with a measured admixture of surfactant

(Translation from the Andrewese - I put 2 drops of washing-up liquid into the needle-top dispenser and gave it a good shake)  I suppose I could have used winter screenwash, but that would have involved a walk to the Garden Shed!

[Louie da fly]

Liteflight, General Sir Charles Napier, when he subdued the Indian province of Sindh, is reported to have sent to headquarters the single word "peccavi" - I have sinned (a pune or play on words, as Terry Pratchett says). Turns out someone else really came up with it, but why let the facts spoil a good story?

 

Intertwingled - I like it.

 

1mm=1 inch - well, almost - that would be a scale of 1 to 25.4. Close enough, I suppose . . . Having been raised on Imperial then having had to convert to metric later in life - and working as a building designer, having to convert drawings from 1"=8 feet  (1:96) to metric 1:100 (so close and yet so far . . .).

 

And converting links to metres on Site Plans (as everybody knows, 100 links equals 1 chain, because there are 100 links in a surveyor's chain, and a chain is 66 feet, the length of a cricket pitch, and so 1 link equals 1/100 of 66 feet = 66 x 0.3048 metres, divided by 100 = 0.201 metres -  or about 8 inches in the old money - oh, it's all good fun till someone loses an eye!) And don't get me started on avoirdupois!

 

Sorry, rambling again. Spending too much time at home. Back to the subject at hand, laser cutting your own scrollwork sounds like a plan. Metal might have its advantages, but it would be harder to round the edges than it would if you used timber. Not impossible, just more work. It might well be worth investigting the veneer greeting card method - assuming it wasn't prohibitively expensive. I'm not sure, though, whether greeting cards come under "essential services" in the current climate . . . 

 

Still think it’s a strange place to have an opening, but probably there was so much water everywhere it made little difference.

 

To me it all seems very sensible and practical. It seems to me that it would be impossible to make the area under the forecastle deck watertight, and having water under there would affect the trim of the ship quite badly. Trying to access that space to bale out would be murder, so why not just let the water slosh around into the main body of the hull where you could get at it? 

 

 

[liteflight]

3 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

1mm=1 inch - well, almost - that would be a scale of 1 to 25.4. Close enough, I suppose . . . Having been raised on Imperial then having had to convert to metric later in life - and working as a building designer, having to convert drawings from 1"=8 feet  (1:96) to metric 1:100 (so close and yet so far . . .).

Ironic, I was raised metric and had to learn a lot when I got into industry

 

3 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

And don't get me started on avoirdupois!

Why not?? What is wrong with having peas?

My bugbear (well one of my bugbears) is US and Imperial liquid measure.  In a discussion several years ago about an absolute weight to calibrate a scale an American vouchsafed "A pint's a pound the world around"  Full marks for rhyming, 7/10 for scansion.  Nul Points for not being aware that a "pint of pure water weighs a pound and a quarter"  and there are two pints, quarts floz. etc

Mixing 2-stroke for my racing bike using American oil was pretty interesting, because the bottle gave dilutions in ounces per gallon, and my petrol came in Gallons Imperial.  50/1 isn't difficult in metric.

 

3 hours ago, Louie da fly said:

To me it all seems very sensible and practical. It seems to me that it would be impossible to make the area under the forecastle deck watertight, and having water under there would affect the trim of the ship quite badly. Trying to access that space to bale out would be murder, so why not just let the water slosh around into the main body of the hull where you could get at it? 

Agreed, I'm sure there would be limber holes (or Nordic equivalent) to allow the water to reach a place where bailing was possible/easy.  I have thought a bit about that, and looked at the bailers found at Oseberg.  They are quite small, perhaps half a pint🤣 but not shaped particularly to access water in triangular spaces, or a lot of it.

I assume that the crew would raise a section of boards around midships to aft on the lee side and propel the bilge water over the lee rail.

Also the replica sailors would face similar issues, cos the replicas would ship water and leak rather like the originals, so Somebody knows and has lost knuckles in the process of learning.

 

 

[Louie da fly]

1 hour ago, liteflight said:

What is wrong with having peas?

Oh, yet another pune - and in French, yet! We have a language expert here, do we?