Identify-name these rigs

[Thanasis]

Thank you for your time and your valuable information.

Too many answers to reply though, so allow me not to reply to each one of you…

Starting from the term “Jackass-Rig”. There was also here (Gr) a similar term “mule” (or «bastard”) but it was referring to mix up hulls i.e. where a vessel was built with a different bow or stern from what it should be for its type…

And although the “Jackass-Rig” seems convenient, it doesn’t give the picture or the actual rigging for each vessel.

 

The term “Galiot” again is not referring to the rigs of a vessel but rather to the shape of hull not to mention me too, that there is also a confusion since I have met that, from nation to nation was also called “Fusta” and “Semi Galley”. At least for the Greeks, the term “Galiot” (Galiota) was used in a vessel similar to Chebeck, back in 1800.

 

“Polacca-Polacre” (see also Pollaccone) yes it’s a rigging term, although it’s not certain whether refers to a two or three masts vessel with square or triangular sails. I think it was-is used for naming something close to that rigging and give a general idea to someone not familiar to the terms-names of other nations' use…That’s why in my model (Thanks Tony) I name the rigging as “a version of Polacra”.

I would hardly accept this term for the vessel in photo no2, since to me looks like misset topsail Schooner or misset Bombarda…

 

So about the term “Bombarda” and “Bombarda Sabatiera”. ”Bombarda” in Gr naval bibliography, is describing either the shape of the hull, or the type of the rigging which was two masts, with four square sail in front 2-3 staysails and a mainsail in aft.

On the other hand “Bombarda Sabatiera” refers only to the type of rigging where in a type of hull (usually Bombarda and Trechantiri hulls) there are two masts with three square sails in front and a lug sail in aft.

 

I must admit I didn't expect this interesting and the long discussion, but at least for me, it turns to be a good chance to refresh some of my knowledge…

 

Thx

[Tony Hunt]

Thank you Thanasis, that's very interesting.  For sure, the naming conventions for sailing vessels (especially small craft) are rocky waters to navigate. 🙂

 

I get the impression that this is particularly true in the Mediterranean region.  The maritime history goes back thousands of years, there are so many different countries and languages involved, and numerous different shipbuilding and rigging traditions, all of which has led to an amazing number of different types of vessels that have mixed and evolved over the centuries.

 

Adding to this confusion, at least for English-speaking people, is the strong habit in the English language of co-opting useful words from other languages, often changing their spelling (and sometimes their meaning!) in the process.  Across several hundred years of English mariners sailing the waters of the Med, I have little doubt that there has been a great deal of such cultural appropriation of nautical terms.  From the discussion above, this certainly seems to be the case with the term "Polacca" as an excellent example.  I've no doubt that Bob Cleek has the origin of the term correct with respect to the corsair ships of Murat Reis around 1600 or thereabouts.  However, by the early 1800s it looks like the term was being applied to an entirely different type of vessel with little regard for its original derivation, and by the 1840s it was even being used in the official registers of British shipping.

 

All of which suggests that the only really correct answer would be to find out what the locals named these vessels.  Which leads me to ask where these photographs come from - are they Greek in origin?  

[Roger Pellett]

Sailing rig nomenclature is regionally dependent.  Names, like the rigs that they referred to were invented by those who used them, without reference to a nautical dictionary.  For example, can anyone explain what a “square rigged bugeye” is; or a “three sail bateau”?

 

The term “Tall Ship” that I agree is meaningless was taken from John Masefield’s poem:  “I must go down to the sea again, to the lonely sea and the sky, and all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by.”

[Bob Cleek]

4 hours ago, Roger Pellett said:

The term “Tall Ship” that I agree is meaningless was taken from John Masefield’s poem:  “I must go down to the sea again, to the lonely sea and the sky, and all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by.”

 

The terms and phrases "tall ships," "tall ships are coming," "tall ships 20##," and "tall ships challenge" are registered trademarks of The American Sail Training Association (ASTRA.) The term "tall ship" has been registered by ASTRA with the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office since 1976. ASTRA reportedly charges 15 to 20 percent of the entire budget of an event to license the use of their "tall ships" trademark.

 

Perhaps a savvy ship modeling club will trademark the term, "small ships" for use with its next model show!  

Edited January 4, 2021 by Bob Cleek

[Harvey Golden]

8 hours ago, Tony Hunt said:

...

Adding to this confusion, at least for English-speaking people, is the strong habit in the English language of co-opting useful words from other languages, often changing their spelling (and sometimes their meaning!) in the process.  ...

Well said.  We (as English speakers. . . and no doubt other tongues are guilty of this as well) tend to look for our own familiar and comfortable terms to describe things that are actually quite different or entirely misunderstood by ourselves.  I think this is a natural way of processing the new and unknown, but it is liable to folly and overlooking nuance. Perhaps the ideal-- not always attainable-- is to learn the native/local term,  to derive an accurate translation of the term, and to understand it's use and function.  Beyond this, we are really just throwing words around, no?

[Thanasis]

 

@Tony Hunt. As I wrote, these types of vessels-rigging were shown in North Aegean Sea at early of 20^th century and I guess the photos were taken between 1912 and 1917, around Lemnos Island.

By that time, Ottoman Empire had lost western territories as a result of the Balkan wars 1912-1913.

So among others Gr islands of North Aegean Sea were set free and many of former Turkish vessels had come to Greeks.

As the Navy officer H. M. Denham in his article "Aegean Caiques 1915-1980" (The Mariner's mirror) also writes, “the local shipping was heterogeneous in type of hull and rig".

However, even by his own eyes ascertainment (he claims had visited Lemnos in 1915), he doesn't quote (naming) any kind of unusual rigging, but just staying describing the typical ones. In fact, the last photo in my first post, is from his article and been titled "Turkish Trehandiri-a very strange and rare rig. Mudros (Lemnos) 1915". (My comment, I doubt even for the hull as Trechantiri, because the shape of the bow).

  So what we see could be interventions and "patches" from Gr sailors, or remnants of an initial type of rigging, but I thought to give it a try, looking for a suitable name.

  Eventually, after also this discussion and realizing that it can't be given a name to all these motley riggings, I think I'll borrow the name of another vessel of that time, settee-rigged and no other info.

That is "Savouradiko"* meaning in Gr, more or less, something no worth to deal with (discard-junks) 

Many thanks 

 

*It comes from Italian word of “zavorra” meaning the ballast of a ship, therefore something worthless.

Edited January 4, 2021 by Thanasis

[Thanasis]

Hi all. New information came up for the first photo of my initial post. 
I really don't know how this photo mixed up with the older ones of my archive and feeling responsible for this mistake allow me to make the correction. 
The photo shows a Gr type of hull known as "Trechantiri" while her rigging, as many mentioned, it's a "staysail schooner", non existence in Gr. traditional rigs though.
That because the first owner of her was an English person who built the boat right after the ww2 in Greece, with the hull he liked but he rather found suitable to set the "staysail schooner" type as rigs. You might have heard the name of her which is "Strormie Seas".

A photo of her in a magazine's cover in 1958.

 

Thx and my apologies.

[System13]

What I have for now can't promise 100% accuracy, but I'm sure it'll get better with input

Edited October 27, 2022 by System13

[System13]

1- Staysail Schooner
2- Schooner Brig or Brigantine
3- Difficult because I've never seen this configuration. It's not a lateen sail as the yard doesnt, cross the mast, it's not a sliding gunter sail because it's not verical enough at the main mast tops. Maybe a military houari?
4- also Staysail Schooner