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Posted

 I think I understand what top and butt is, but could someone explain Steel's definition of top and butt.

From "Element etc.'

"A method of working English plank so as to make good conversion. As the plank runs very narrow at the top clear of sap, this is done by disposing the top end of every plank within six feet of the butt end of the plank above or below it, letting every plank work, as broad as it will hold clear of sap, by which method only can every other seam produce a fair edge."

What does the planks nationality have to do with it?

Clear of sap?

After that I can't even think of questions. Strange language English🙂

Posted

I think it the "sap:" is the sapwood.  The outer layer just below the bark.  But, I'm not sure about the 6 foot part as I would have thought that the sawing operation would have removed much if not all of it.

Mark
"The shipwright is slow, but the wood is patient." - me

Current Build:                                                                                             
Past Builds:
 La Belle Poule 1765 - French Frigate from ANCRE plans - ON HOLD           Triton Cross-Section   

 NRG Hallf Hull Planking Kit                                                                            HMS Sphinx 1775 - Vanguard Models - 1:64               

 

Non-Ship Model:                                                                                         On hold, maybe forever:           

CH-53 Sikorsky - 1:48 - Revell - Completed                                                   Licorne - 1755 from Hahn Plans (Scratch) Version 2.0 (Abandoned)         

         

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                

Posted

Sapwood is of inferior quality and prone to rot. The term 'English' seems to refer to the origin of the wood. Other source were typically tropical hardwood (not much used in the UK themselves) and Baltic 'deals'. In both cases the sapwood would have probably been removed in a saw mill before shipping, as such woods otherwise may have fetched lower prices.

I would interpret Steel in this way: In order avoid sapwood butting against other planks (as was done, when hulls had a rather rounded midship section, but fairer ends) or into the rabbet, the plank was tapered on the upper edge, cutting away the sapwood. 

wefalck

 

panta rhei - Everything is in flux

 

 

M-et-M-72.jpg  Banner-AKHS-72.jpg  Banner-AAMM-72.jpg  ImagoOrbis-72.jpg
Posted

Maybe it was supposed to say English Oak. I'm starting to wonder if this was part of the shortage of English Oak. Much like Wefalck says, were they tapering the ends of the planks to make use of the heartwood at the tops of the trees.

I was originally thinking that this top and butt pattern was for strength purposes but I couldn't see how it made anything stronger. If they were doing it to conserve wood it starts to make sense.

Thanks guys

Posted

It was probably to conserve wood and not make things weaker by not using sapwood, where planks needed to be endfastened and caulked.

wefalck

 

panta rhei - Everything is in flux

 

 

M-et-M-72.jpg  Banner-AKHS-72.jpg  Banner-AAMM-72.jpg  ImagoOrbis-72.jpg
Posted

Just to be clear here, I'm not trying to be picky. So much of the info we have is old English and I'm trying to develop an understanding of the language. The meanings attached to their words are at the edges of the definitions that we use now so when you read words like "conversion" and "disposing" you have to stretch our understanding of the words a bit.

Posted

It is for American English native speakers probably more difficult than for British English native speakers (I am actually neither ...).

 

To my knowledge it is still current parlance in British English to speak of converting timber into construction parts with the implied meaning of being resource efficient.

 

It seems that in American English the noun 'disposition' in recent years has became a verb ('to disposition'), replacing the original verb 'to dispose' (in the sense of arranging something, such as troops or in this case planks) or the phrase 'to make dispositions', while the meaning of 'to dispose' has narrowed to 'making arrangements for the mangement of waste'.

wefalck

 

panta rhei - Everything is in flux

 

 

M-et-M-72.jpg  Banner-AKHS-72.jpg  Banner-AAMM-72.jpg  ImagoOrbis-72.jpg
Posted
4 hours ago, wefalck said:

The term 'English' seems to refer to the origin of the wood. Other source were typically tropical hardwood (not much used in the UK themselves) and Baltic 'deals'.

Exactly.

1 hour ago, Don Case said:

Maybe it was supposed to say English Oak.

The contract would have specified woods to be used and, once this was spelled out, sometimes it was not repeated within the different sections/clauses of the contract. I haven't seen your source so that is a general observation, hopefully on point.

🌻

STAY SAFE

 

A model shipwright and an amateur historian are heads & tails of the same coin

current builds:

HMS Berwick 1775, 1/192 scratchbuild; a Slade 74 in the Navy Board style

Mediator sloop, 1/48 - an 18th century transport scratchbuild 

French longboat - CAF - 1/48, on hold

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