48pdr cannon

[G. Delacroix]

These are only proposals that were to lead to new fabrications to arm the ships.

 

[druxey]

I'm puzzled by the different ways those descriptions are written (post #23). "48 pounder carronades" is clear enough. But why then write "carronades of the calibre of 48" (my italics)? Does this perhaps relate to bore diameter rather than weigh of shot?

[Waldemar]

 

Licentia poetica?

 

My straightforward interpretation (hopefully in line with the intention of both author and translator) is:

 

48 pounder carronade   =   carronade of the calibre of 48   =   carronade of the calibre of 7 inches

 

Just different descriptions of a new proposed type (class) of ordnance with the French standard 48 pound (or 7 inches) calibre.

 

Gerard, am I right or otherwise?

 

Edited September 26, 2021 by Waldemar

[Thanasis]

@ Delacroix. Still I don't get it. 
Paixnans wrote his ""Nouvelle force Maritime"  in 1822. So when he proposes the 48pdr carronade as part of a ship's gunnery, he has already worked on his new 48pdr straight trajectory's gun since 1810. So to my point of view, I think he just clarifies this new gun by calling it "48pdr carronade". Having already the 48pdr curved trajectory's gun and his new 48pdr straight trajectory's gun, I can't see what  new fabrication is proposed. 
@Waldemar. Under the Ottomans, the ships of Gr fleet were trade ones which turned to war ships and so they were armed only with small caliber guns 12-24 pdrs, just for piracy protection. They were upgrading every after a victorious naval fight or  the siege of a fort. Ottomans had 48pdr cannons in their fortification all over, as remnants of the Venetians 150 years before. 
That, it could be a first potential source for 48pdrs even it could be problematic the issue of ammunition. 
And yes, after the start of war every cannon market was open.
Thank you

[Lieste]

A Gun or carronade of 36 livre would fire a boulet plein of around 18.28kg (gauges appear to average high). (As well as other ammunition; canister, bombe, boulet croix etc)

An canon-obusier or obusier of the calibre of 36 livre would share gauges with the gun or carronade, but would fire only canister, bombe or a boulet croix, with a weight of 11.71kg.

The distinction 'of the size of' implies a common size, but distinct character. IMO.

(The same would apply to the 48livre calibre - but I don't have values for a 48 livre piece - or indeed English calibres (e.g. the 24pdr iron howitzer fires shell and shrapnel and case in the calibre of the 24pdr shot, but does not fire the plain roundshot... while the calibre distinction is more clearly seen with the 5.5" brass howitzers which were in use at it's introduction - common calibre, but not firing the same ammunition).

Other nations refer to their Howitzers by the mass of a solid stone projectile assumed for the weapon, though only hollow shot and shell, carcass and canister are supplied. (e.g. the 'roughly 24pdr equivalent' "7 pd Howitzer"), or use an unusual measurement standard to distinguish the lighter ordnance (e.g. poods, vs artillery pounds in Russian service for their unicorns - the pood being raised on the smaller merchantile trade pound).

[Waldemar]

 

Thanasis:

 

An obsolete large Venetian stone gun (petriera, cannon-perier) would lovely match the available data on your gun.

 

Such guns could be quite long, sometimes almost like true-bored cannons. Large bore in the range of 18–19 cm diameter would roughly match the closest standard 48-pdr shot. And perhaps best of all, it was a chambered gun, just like the carronade, and essentially it could be used as carronade, hence classed as such by the Philhellenes.

 

[Waldemar]

… and it would be rather a bronze gun, relatively lightweight, up to, say, 700–800 kg.

[Mr Doxford]

10 hours ago, Thanasis said:

@Lieste. I have also consider the case of a 48cwt for which I don't know why someone at that time, would be referring to that, instead of the caliber of the gun. In addition there are the philhellenes' descriptions, who write for a 48lib carronade.

@Mark. Sorry but searching the same way, I couldn't find something for 48lib carronades. And according to Spencer C. Tucker  ( university professor, and author of works on military history) in his article "The Carronade" (Nautical research Journal), carronades were cast in all calibers, but the most common in about 1810, were 12-, 18-, 24-, and 32-pdr,  giving also some info for 42 and 68pdr carronades. But nothing for 48pdr.
Anyway.
The schooner I'm talking about is the "Terpsichore" rigged as topsail schooner, for which there is nothing more as technical info than the length of her keel that was 27,4 m (89,8 feet). Based on American's schooners plans, she was famous for her speed and her big gun, for which btw, there is nothing written as an achievement of it.!? 

@Delacroix. My English are not so good but if I'm understanding well, it is about what Paixans' proposes as gunnery for ships. I don't think that he would suggest something that it was non-existent and suppose to be invented in future. And all I could think is that he is referring to his innovation for a 48pdr gun.
Thank you all

Hi Thanasis,

Thank you for posting that ship portrait by one of the Roux family, of Marseilles. I have one of their ship portraits, of the "Brig Captain Hathorn of Wigtown, John McWilliam Master, leaving Marseilles Feb 7th 1863",  which I found in an Edinburgh charity shop about fifty years ago. I had no idea what I'd bought (it cost me 10 shillings in old money), until John Craxton RA, who was based in Xania, in Crete, at the time, spotted it hanging on my wall, and gave me the run down on the Roux family, who would paint ship portraits, usually for the Captains of ships, who would order the portrait as they entered the Med, and collect them on the way out again. The whole family seemed to be involved in the family business, and as they were painting them for professional seamen, their attention to detail was very exact, so  I would imagine looking at Roux ship portraits would be a good source of pretty accurate information for the ship modeller. There are quite a few of them on the internet, and they used to come up fairly regularly at Sotheby's Marine Paintings auctions. 

When I was at sea in the 1970's, I commissioned three watercolours of ships I had sailed on, by a Mister R.D. Morris of Auckland, one of the MV Canberra Star in rough weather, another of the MV English Star, and one of the Merchant Navy training ship the Glen Strathallan, which was based on the Thames, and was later sunk to be used to train RN divers. She was stripped of anything useful before being scuttled, and her triple expansion engine ended up in the Science Museum in South Kensington. RD Morris is a terrific marine artist, who used to come down to the ships berthed in Auckland, to ask if anyone wanted their ship painted, and I met him when I was an engineer cadet on a very ugly container ship on her maiden voyage called the ACT 5, which no one would have wanted a painting of, but he made a beautiful water colour of the Blue Star Line's Canberra Star, ( in bad weather, spray bursting over the fore deck ) which was the best ship I ever sailed on. He worked very fast, and the completed painting was delivered, in a frame, ready to be hung the next morning, which was pretty impressive, especially as he only charged me $10 NZ. There are quite a few of his paintings on the internet. If anyone from this site would like to check his work out, I'm sure they won't be disappointed.  know this has little to do with ship build logs, except for the fact that modellers might find it useful to study Roux paintings because of their accuracy and attention to detail. Their depiction of rigging always looks pretty impressive to my   (untrained)  eye. I hope I haven't been too off topic for this wonderful site. Thanks to everyone who posts their build logs, with how they dealt with the problems they encountered on the way.

 

 

[Waldemar]

More details on a matching Venetian „48-pdr carronade“ (from the book by C. Beltrame and M. Morin, I Cannoni di Venezia. Artiglierie della Serenissima in Turchia, Grecia e Dalmazia, 2013).

 

 

Tipologia: cannone petriero da 90 in bronzo
Località di conservazione: Askeri muze ve Kultur Sitesi Komutani Istanbul
N° di inventario: 261
Fonditore: Tommaso di Conti
Anno di fusione: ante quem 1540
Proprietà: statale
Calibro: 19.2 cm
Peso pezzo marcato: 1360 (il peso in libbre grosse alla veneziana) = ~610 kg
Dimensioni: 190 cm (lungh. tot.), 174 cm (lungh. conv.), 30.7 cm (diam. al foc.), 31.8 cm (diam. agli orecch.), 26 cm (diam. alla gioia), 32 cm (diam. della gioia).
Descrizione: pezzo di tipo “camerato”, ossia con canna il cui diametro in corrispondenza della culatta è ridotto. L’arma è dotata di rinforzo centrale mentre la volata, e parte del posteriore, sono più strette. La gioia di bocca presenta una gola molto pronunciata. Sulla parte alta della volata una doppia cordonatura crea una fascia su cui è presente la X del Consiglio dei Dieci. Al di sotto è presente un leone accosciato verso destra soprastante le iniziali T e C tra triangolini, indicanti il fonditore. Al centro dell’anello di culatta è inciso il numero 1360 indicante il peso in libbre grosse alla veneziana. Sul pomo sono incise due linee parallele.

 

 

 

 

 

Sample stone gun (cannon-perier) intersections:

 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Waldemar

[G. Delacroix]

Hello,

 

Concerning the calibers, at least in the French navy, to make it simple and in fact, without mentioning the aborted proposals:
The denomination of a traditional gun until the arrival of howitzers is done by the weight of the ball it is capable of firing. For a 36pdr cannon for example, the ball weighed 36 French pounds (old pounds of 0.489 g) thus a weight of 17.60 kg. The gun is thus called: "canon de 36 livres, term shortened to "canon de 36" or abusively "canon de calibre 36", abusively because the true caliber concerns the diameter of the bore which is never mentioned. The classical calibers were 36, 24, 18 for the "big" calibers and 12, 8, 6 and 4 for the "small" calibers. The 48 is exceptional and very rare, the very small calibers of 3 and 2 are used by the civil navy. 
For the carronades it's identical, a 36pdr carronade fired at the beginning, in the 1780's and then named "obusier de vaisseau", shells of the same diameter as the 36 cannonballs, then, in front of the difficulty of implementation of the shells not very advanced at the time, the shooting was limited to the real 36 cannonballs and to the grapeshot. The carronades are declined in several calibers, 36, 24, 18 and some 12 caliber in the civil navy and the privateers.

When the howitzers were admitted in the navy in 1827, they were named by the diameter of the bore to simplify the terms, first in inches ("canon obusier de 80 : 8 French inches bore) then in cm (canon obusier de 22 : 22  cm bore). 
The howitzers will then be declined in several calibers and named according to the diameter of their bore (canon obusier de 16 ou 27...) with variations according to their shape.
Several proposals, tests and full-scale trials were of course practical, but in reality, the navy's artillery was basically summed up in this quotation. 

 

So, to answer the question : 36pdr carronade = carronade of the calibre 36 = carronade of the calibre  #6.5 inches, the last denomination is not used.

And I remind that the 48pdr carronades have never been admitted in the French Navy, which confirms that the text quoting Paixhans published above is indeed a proposal resumed without follow-up.

 

GD

[bruce d]

Thank you very much for clarifying this. ✔️

[Waldemar]

 

There is also another possibility, ie. that of Venetian guns of the so-called "New Invention" from around 1684, being in essence cannon-howitzers, just like the later French Paixhans guns (canon-obusiers).

 

Two models were produced in modest quantities, with calibres of 265 mm and 212 mm (respectively of 200 and 120 „small“ Venetian pounds). The calibre of the smaller version is quite close to the supposed, later „48-pdr carronade“.

 

Two prototypes were cast from iron in England (six calibres long, ~1670 kg). „Normal“ production specimens were cast in bronze at the Venice Arsenal (3500 „large“ Venetian pounds = ~1560 kg).

 

More on these guns in G. Candiani, The race to big calibres during the first war of Morea and Sigismondo Alberghetti’s guns of new inwention, [in:] Ships and Guns. The Sea Ordnance in Venice and Europe between the 15th and 17th Centuries, 2011.

 

 

Smaller, 120-pdr (212 mm) Gun of the New Invention (cannon-howitzer), with its shell beneath the muzzle:

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by Waldemar

[Thanasis]

@Waldemar. This (large-heavy Venetian gun) was also for me the first thought but it doesn't match with the research and innovative mind of the ship owner-captain. Except only if we assumed that he placed such a gun in his ship's bow, just to terrify the enemy. This was my second though, since I haven’t found any glorious achievement by this gun...

@Mr Doxford. I want to believe that the painting of "Terpsichore" shows the exact real ship.

Although at least one element of the rigging of the ship on his painting, was not used to be on Gr schooners, I guess should be accepted as an adopted by the owner innovation . I'm talking for the crossed yard above the deck in the fore mast.

@Delacroix. Thank you-your info is much appreciated.

I can't fight the fact, that the French navy never owned 48pdr carronades. What I'm saying is that the Paixhans in the above text, might call his 48pdr straight trajectory gun as carronade.

 

We might think that carronades are the short shape of a cannon but it might not be such.

See the below photos which shows a remnant of a 68pdr carronade with Paixhans system, which recently found in the wreck of "KARTERIA".

Thank you

Edited September 27, 2021 by Thanasis

[Lieste]

The diagram doesn't match the ordnance displayed, which is clearly an 1823 18pdr of the British pattern. Length is unclear and the close ups don't include the weight markings to allow inference as to the intended weight and length, but 8ft or 9ft are the common types, at ~38 or 43 cwt.

[Waldemar]

1 hour ago, Thanasis said:

This (large-heavy Venetian gun) was also for me the first thought but it doesn't match with the research and innovative mind of the ship owner-captain.

 

May I ask you, what is the current state of this research except data you have already put in this thread? Thank you in advance.

[Lieste]

Further to the 18pdr... a hypothesis that a handwriting or confusing print font/poor quality reproduction led someone to misreport the 18 as a 48 - which combined with a sub-50 cwt ordnance weight led to a conclusion of a carronade, while the actual pivot gun was nothing more exotic than a Blomefeld 18pdr in 43cwt.

Discuss.

[Thanasis]

Well I'm not an naval artillery expert and whatever knowledge I've gain, is whatever I've read from different sources for that time, trying to determine the type of gun that might was set on schooner "Terpsichore".
In fact I joined a research team of modelers who 2,5 years before had the idea to built a model of her. 
At this time the model is already finished by a fellow modeler, with a version of the big gun in prow, such as it  won't contrast with what many people have read or imagine.
Trying to find as much from the truth, we continue the search until the model be exposed and in case that some new emerged, then a new model of the gun will be built and set on the ship model.
As about the photos of those supposedly long carronades of "Karteria", the history says that her armament was 4  68pdr guns and 4  68pdr carronades. I have no opinion, thinking that whoever published this photos, have made his homework...!?
Thank you

[Waldemar]

Well, if you insist on something more modern, quite detailed data is available for the Russian carronades and the so-called unicorns, both naval service, and both also in 48-pdr size, and both in regular service in 18th and 19th centuries. As an aside, Russian unicorns are in practice nothing more than copies of Venetian guns of the New Invention from 1684.

 

You just need to establish such possibility in your sources.

 

And keep in mind that even "Karteria", built abroad few years later than the "Terpsichore", had to wait several months for her modern, state-of-the-art armament. Meanwhile, she got temporary, more or less random guns taken from a fortress.

[Thanasis]

I don't insist in something more modern than a 48pdr trajectory gun of that time. 
I must admit that one member of our search team, has the strong belief that must be a Russian Unicorn.
In many arguments we had, I point out that we have found nothing to relate the owner-captain of the ship (Tompazis) to Russians and there was no any Russian officer around his environment but instead there were a few French and English military officers, who were following the developments in Europe.
In addition both Tomas Gordon (Scottish Colonel)  and Frank Abney Hastings (British naval officer, crew on "Terpsichore" and later commander of "Karteria")  philhellenes,  in their memoirs, are referring to that gun as 48pdr carronade without pointing the nationality. I think both they should have been able to recognize a Russian gun or they should ask and write about it.
In general we have spent much time of our search  for the gun of 'Terpsichore". 
We don't know whether the gun was set on her before the start of war or after, to determine whether was a buy or a later prize.
We don't know whether the two philhellenes referring for the same initial gun, or on something that had been set later.
There are so many options and uncertainty that we can only make guesses and someone (like me) based on the character of the captain.
Thank you

[Waldemar]

 

Just to be on the safe side: no armament factory (gunfoundry) in Greece then?

 

Taking all this into account, and especially the available sources of artillery armament, I would turn into the Ottoman or Venetian ordnance.

If Ottoman, it could be half-kantar gun, which may be regarded as an equivalent of the Western carronade of roughly the standard 48-pdr size. This half-kantar gun, in its shape, was not far from the obsolete, medieval stone guns (cannon-periers). And all of these chambered guns were still widely used on board Ottoman ships even in 19th century. Always cast in bronze. For example, in the Russo-Turkish war of 1787-1792, Ottoman 86-gun battleships had four half-kantar guns.

 

Ottomans also cast copies of Venetian and Russian longer unicorns (cannon-howitzers), but these should be easily distinguished by a professional like Hastings from a carronade-like guns with shorter barrels.

 

If not Ottoman, you can take into account Venetian ordnance, with hundreds, if not thousands of specimens lying all around. Many of them, in function and capabilities, were almost perfect equivalent of modern guns.

 

Again, first take a look at what was used locally then...

[bruce d]

4 hours ago, Thanasis said:

both Tomas Gordon (Scottish Colonel)  and Frank Abney Hastings (British naval officer, crew on "Terpsichore" and later commander of "Karteria")  philhellenes,  in their memoirs, are referring to that gun as 48pdr carronade

 

19 hours ago, Thanasis said:

We might think that carronades are the short shape of a cannon but it might not be such.

Hmmmmmm. Both of those officers called it a carronade? Two officers describing a piece as a 'carronade' seems conclusive. It is unlikely both would have mistaken a howitzer or long gun for something as distinctive as a carronade.

This thread has  covered a lot of ground and I would like to dwell on a point: the guns from KARTERIA do not match the accompanying drawing (see posts #43 & 44).

Two officers independently identified a 'carronade': the drawing does not show a carronade. A carronade was a patented device with set proportions and while the drawing shows something of the same general idea as a carronade it does not conform properly to the proportions. However, a gun conforming to that drawing may easily have been described by observers as a carronade because of its general shape.

It would help to untie the knot if we knew more about the source and relevance of the drawing.

[Thanasis]

@Waldemar. Well as I wrote, "Greece" was under the Ottomans' occupation it would be rather difficult to be set up such factory and especial for heavy cannons.
As about the "half kandar gun" I'll make a better search to that direction again. Your info brought in my mind a notice under a history's text, where after the destruction of the Ottoman's flagship in the gulf of Eressos (island of Lesvos) by a fire ship, among the ships which stay back for plundering cannons was also the "Terpsichore". It is written that the flag ship was a 76 cannon's ship but it's not quite clear whether at that time May 1821 (at the begging of the war) "Terpsichore" had that 48pdr gun. 
In a history text I found that the range was long  and it couldn't reach the flag ship while in another one that, the flag ship was so strong that the big gun of her, was ineffective...!? 
@bruse d. I place the complete drawing bellow.
It's hand drawn by Hasting as it was his idea based on Paixhans system while he was preparing the armament of "Karteria". As you can see and if my eyes don't misleads me there is the word "carronade" while I can't read the rest of the text...

Thank you

 

[bruce d]

“The gun is formed like a carronade except that it is longer and has trunnions resembling those of a long gun.”

 

The dimensions are at the right hand side and may hold all the clues. I will defer to anyone with better resources but I do not believe this piece is British.

 

Hope this helps,

Bruce

[Waldemar]

1 hour ago, Thanasis said:

@Waldemar. Well as I wrote, "Greece" was under the Ottomans' occupation it would be rather difficult to be set up such factory and especial for heavy cannons.

 

Well, factories can be taken over (captured) too, like cities or fortresses. Never mind...

 

The text reads (ou, already translated by Bruce):

 

"This gun is formed like a carronade except that it is longer and has trunnions resembling those of a long gun".

One may also add here: just like in carronades intended for merchant service (in contrast to naval/military service), which had normally trunnions as well.

 

This quasi-carronade concept/project by Hastings could not be modelled after Paixhans system, as this system was not yet fully invented, or at least accepted by the French Navy. See Gerard's posts. It seems, that it is just an invention by Hastings. Maybe actually cast, maybe not.

 

Don't be afraid of the apparently obsolete stone (chambered) guns, as they could be deadly efficient even against large warships. You perhaps know a famous accident, from just a few years before, when a large stone roundshot from an Ottoman gun smashed at the large British ship-of-the-line, making terrible damage and killing some of the crew on the spot. Only range was lacking, just as in carronades.

 

 

Edited September 28, 2021 by Waldemar

[Thanasis]

@Bruce. Here is the dimension of those 68 pdr carronades (π=feet). According to Hastings archives, that is kept in English archeological school of Athens, the carronades were constructed in England and were sent in Greece with the ship "Alfred"  (Captain Monkman) and  they been received in16th of May 1826.

It should have been a special order that, was needed to be a special mold...

@Waldemar. Yes, factories can be taken over but not from the very first months of the war, starting produce heavy guns.(?)

Terpsichore appears to use her 48pdr gun (even uncertain) two months after the beginning of war in May 1821...

Going buck to thread...

Could please anyone say whether those guns in photos are a 48pdr and a 36pdr guns?

Thank you

 

 

 

 

Edited September 29, 2021 by Thanasis

[bruce d]

Hello Thanasis,

The thread has covered a lot of ground and discussed different times and places. Sorry if I am missing something but it seems I did not understand the basics.

The cannons in the photo (post #43) are not 48 or 68 pounders, they are much smaller: see comments from Lieste in post #44 and #46..

In post #45 Waldemar asks what other information you have. Since you have all the information concerning the supply of the gun in the drawing, and the dimensions, what is the remaining question?

I hope you understand my confusion 🙂.

[Waldemar]

 

Is it acceptable in this fine project to arm the ship („Terpsichore“) operating already in 1821 with the ordnance specifically designed in 1825 (and delivered in 1826) for „Karteria“?

 

You decide, but if the current preferences are for a modern carronade (or carronade like gun) of exactly 48 pound caliber, you are perhaps left only with Russian or Ottoman ordnance, or maybe a British specimen aimed at the merchant market too.

 

The inventory and weight marks cut on the baserings of bronze cannons in the two pictures above are not much helpful here.

 

[Thanasis]

Well, sorry mates but I think I've been misunderstood.
In any way I don't relate the 48pdr cannon of "Terpsichore" with the 68pdr carronade of "Karteria". I would be rather foolish...
I was just answering the questions that was set at me...
Finally, I specify that my query was whether the gun of "Terpsichore" could be something else (Hybrid Paixhans gun?).

Thanks to all of you, I have some more option to turn my search.

Thank you

Edited September 29, 2021 by Thanasis
Wrong term

[bruce d]

Thanasis, I may be wrong but it seems there is still some confusion about the cannons in post #43.

The size of the bore is a very reliable way to identify the size of a cannon/carronade. Here are some of the bore sizes of artillery pieces popular in the middle of the 19^th century:

 

    - size -                - bore -

6 pounder =     3.67 inches

9 pounder =     4.20 inches

12 pounder =   4.62 inches

18 pounder =   5.30 inches

24 pounder =   5.82 inches

32 pounder =   6.40 inches

42 pounder =   7 inches

 

I did not find a figure for 48 pounder but there is a formula for calculating the bore for any size of shot. As you can see, the bore of a 48 pounder will be over 7 inches. If you know the bore of the cannons in the photo (post #43) and the drawing (post #52) you can definitely identify their size.

 

Good luck with your research.

HTH

Bruce

 

[G. Delacroix]

The bore diameter of a 48pdr cannon is 194 mm (7.63 inches).

 

GD