Le Soleil Royal by Bill97 - FINISHED - Heller - 1/100

[Ferrus Manus]

The ones on the channel are likely all supposed to be for fish tackles. 

[Ferrus Manus]

Also, when you belay the line, you should really be belaying it on a cleat, pin, or rail, even if you have to make one yourself. Eyebolt a5 is for the hook on the block. 

[Bill97]

That was my confusion/question from the beginning. The Heller instructions (maybe a Hellerism). Do I use a5 or a11 for the hook on the block. The instructions specify a11and a12 for this rigging step. 

[Ferrus Manus]

Refer to your book about that. I'm guessing the kit instructions might very well be right. 

[Ferrus Manus]

The hellerism here isn't the incorrect location of the origin and end of the line, but rather the incorrect rigging of the tackle itself.

[popeye2sea]

6 hours ago, Bill97 said:

Ferrus I think we are close to seeing and saying the same thing. 1052 is the number of the rope. The arrow at the end indicates it is heading somewhere. Based on what you are saying and what I am reading  I cannot determine if it is eyebolt a12 on the channel or a6 inside on the deck. I think what I am going to do is tie 1052 to eyebolt a12 on the starboard channel. Then on the opposite side of the ship I am going to attach block (h1) to eyebolt a11 on the port channel. Then instead of wrapping the fall around block (h1) I am going to tie it inboard on eyebolt a5. If later I find eyebolt a5 had another purpose I will just add another eyebolt. 
 

Baker I had the same thought as well. I will be tying the parral lines on the mast top. 

The way I read the plan is this:  The topsail tye (line 1051) comes down to block m.1, which has a runner rove through it (line 1052). One end of the runner is seized to the eye bolt in the channel a11.  The other end comes down on the opposite channel where the halyard tackle is hooked through it's fall to eyebolt a12.  The Hellerism is what they did with the fall of the halyard tackle.  They have both ends of the fall fixed above and below the blocks.  If you want to rig this correctly you have to attach the fall to one of the blocks with a becket, either opposite the hook on the lower block or opposite the runner on the upper block.  Which way you want the hauling end of the fall to lead will determine which you choose.  

As a follow on point, the topgallant halyard (1058) does the same thing. It is going to lead to a5 and a6 just inboard of the topsail halliard.  The aft most knight is where the fall belays.  I think you can use the that knight to belay the fall of the topsail halyard as well.  The lead is a bit wonky if you have the topsail halyard fall exiting from the bottom block.

 

Regards,

 

Henry

[Ferrus Manus]

I have never seen a topsail halyard with a fall leading from the lower block, and i don't know if they even exist. What my instinct (having rigged several galleons) was, was to have you make a becket on the bottom of the upper block to start the fall. 

[Ferrus Manus]

Furthermore: for the most part, if not without exception, eyebolts are for the standing end of lines and are not for use as belaying points. If any set of instructions tells you to do so, i would take that with considerable suspicion. 

[Bill97]

Ok Ferrus that is exactly the way I have rigged it. It is difficult to tell from my photos. The only thing I guesstimated is how far below the mast top m1 should be?  Basically how long the tye (1051) should be?  I brought it down about 3” below the mast top. 

[Ferrus Manus]

Great job, Bill!!

[Bill97]

Thanks Ferrus. 

[popeye2sea]

17 hours ago, Bill97 said:

Ok Ferrus that is exactly the way I have rigged it. It is difficult to tell from my photos. The only thing I guesstimated is how far below the mast top m1 should be?  Basically how long the tye (1051) should be?  I brought it down about 3” below the mast top. 

 

 

 

 

The way you figure out how far down the tye block should be is to imagine raising and lowering the yard to its extremes.  When the yard is fully lowered to the top you need to still have some drift between the block and the cap.  When the yard is fully raised you do not want the block to foul on the main topmast stay.

 

Regards,

Henry

Edited November 8, 2023 by popeye2sea

[Ferrus Manus]

You beat me to it! That's what i do as well. 

[Bill97]

Thanks Henry. That is what I thought and sort of did a dry fitting of the rope through the block. I am thinking I could even give it a bit more length. Will check it out when I get back at it today. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by Bill97

[Bill97]

Gentlemen my pre-sail running rigging on the foremast is complete all the way up through the topgallant yard. I have determined there is a fine line between getting the rigging snug and keeping the stays the rigging ties to or blocks through straight. I have to except a little here and there. Now on to the main mast 

[Ferrus Manus]

Awesome job, Bill! Aren't you not doing sails for this one? 

[Bill97]

I am going to do sails but I am thinking furled. Will study the best way to make them and how a furled is rigged. I have one model, the HMS Victory, that I left with out sails. All my others I have used a water/glue solution to make billowed sails that came out really nice. I am thinking for my SR I just want the representation of sails furled on the yards

[Bill97]

Ok my friends I want to get smart before adding my rigged yards to the main and mizzen mast. I am reading what I can find including specific topics here on MSW. I am planning to add a combination of furled, partially unfurled, and fully unfurled sails to my ship. Still trying to decide on unfurled on the top gallant and graduate down to fully furled on the main and fire yard. Or some combination to include all furled maybe. I know the material to use and how to make the unfurled sails and have done my best to make some particularly furled in the past. My questions concern attaching them to the yards and rigging them. As you can tell from my photos the yards are already on the foremast so if your recommendation is to attach them to the yard before mounting to the mast I am going to need to do a work around for those 3 yards but can still do the yards for the main and mizzen off the mast. If better to attach the yards first I will proceed as to he Heller instructions show. I can follow the Heller rigging instructions for the unfurled sails.  Not a problem. Have done that several times and know the sequence. But when it comes to the furled sails, are all the same rigging lines still attached but just folded up in the sail or are some disconnected, especially at the clew. If some lines are not attached to a he sail what comes of them. 

[Ian_Grant]

Hi Bill; I think it would be unusual to be sailing a square rigger on topgallants only. If there's a strong breeze, the topgallants would be the first sails furled since (a) they exert a lot of leaning force, being high up, and (b) the spars are smaller and weaker up there. If there's a light enough breeze to use topgallants, then other sails would be unfurled before them.

 

Typical situations for you might be topgallants furled, one reef in the topsails, courses furled; or maybe courses set, two reefs in the topsails, topgallants furled.

 

As for the staysails, if you have them set then the square yards should be turned far to one side for sailing close to the wind.

[Ferrus Manus]

I say keep the courses furled, fly the topsails, and partially unfurl the topgallants. That would look really cool. 

Or perhaps the other way around, with courses partially furled, topsails flown, and topgallants furled. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Ferrus Manus

[Bill97]

I definitely want to furl the course sail. Want to have an open view to the deck. If I were to do the sails as you say Ferrus how would the rigging be done?  Which rigging lines, if any, attached to the sail when “flying” are not attached when furled?

Edited November 11, 2023 by Bill97

[Ferrus Manus]

When a sail is furled, all the associated rigging stays on the sail. 

[Bill97]

Thanks Ferrus. So I understand all the lines stay attached and if the sail is furled the lines are just folded up into the folds of the sail?  I thought that had to be the case. Could not see the crew trying to attach rigging lines to a sail after it was unfurled, or while it was being. 

[Ian_Grant]

Bill, to put this topic to rest, here is a diagram from Harland's "Seamanship in the Age of Sail", showing the order of taking in sail and thus which combinations are realistic to depict on a model. Note on the c1640 example no reefs are present, a sail is either set or furled (or partially furled on one side see diag #7 with all topmasts struck and just a corner of the course showing). For c1780 reefs are common and one can see the topsails, then the courses, gradually reducing in area as the wind increases. Note how the topsail yard lowers by degrees as more reefs are taken in so if you want to show a reefed topsail you should have the yard lowered on the model.

 

Heller shows SR with reefs, I think we discussed this before, I think Mark stated it could have had them assuming we are modelling SR2.

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Ian_Grant

[Ian_Grant]

Bill, just looked back at your photo. With your fore topgallant and topsail yards fully raised as they are, the sails need to be fully set to be correctly rigged. If you want to furl either, or reef the topsail, you will need to lower the appropriate yard(s) as I explained in post above.

[popeye2sea]

I think with the fore topsail and topgallant yards already positioned at full height you are forced to set the main topsail and topgallant the same for the reasons stated above.  Changing the fore topsail and topgallant now would necessitate lowering their yards. When reducing sail the fore topgallant would have been the first to be furled.  So with the fore topgallant set that means that the main topgallant and topsail would have been set already. For the courses there is a case to be made that even with the fore course set the main course could have been furled so as not to block/scavenge  the wind from the fore course.

 

Regards,

Henry

[Ferrus Manus]

If he has rigged the yards correctly, it should be relatively easy to lower them. Or so the theory goes. Personally, i think it would be worth the effort to go back and lower the topgallants. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Ferrus Manus

[Ferrus Manus]

Also, there are multiple tutorials on this site regarding how to furl square sails. You will want to use silkspan for all the sails, as it looks more in scale and is significantly easier to furl. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Ferrus Manus

[Bill97]

Unfortunately even though I rigged the yards on the fore mast the way they would have been rigged in order to raise and lower them I can’t without doing major damage. To hold the yards in place while I rigged them I drilled matching holes in both the yard and mast I which I placed a metal pin with CA glue. I also used a few drops of CA glue on the parrals to help hold them in place while I rigged them.  I would do severe damage to my yards and the mast if I tried to remove them. Until reading you guys newest comments I had no idea the yard was lowered when a sale was furled. Henry I understand since I have the foremast yards as they are I will have to do the same with the main yards if I want to be accurate. I could consider furling the main course, but all the remaining sails will need to be unfurled?  Again if I want to be accurate. Oh well. I guess decisions have been made on sails. 
So are we saying in making my sails there are no reefs in 1668 when the SR was constructed?  That will definitely save some time. 

[Ferrus Manus]

You could probably turn new yards out of wood relatively easily.