Stays on launch masts

[allanyed]

Contemporary drawings show three holes for which the forestay is rigged.  When a second mast is present, how would the stay be rigged?

Sketch below explains better than words, I hope.

Allan

 

 

[wefalck]

I don't know about 18th century practices, but in my late 19th/early 20th century boat reference books such stay were taken to floor. However, the yards then were much steeper and would clear the stay and the foresail had no boom.

 

One option is to set it flying, so that it can be cast loose, when tacking etc.

[allanyed]

LIke below?

Thanks Eberhard

Allan

[wefalck]

Yes, but going down to the keel. Not sure how it would be made fast there at that time. Perhaps a single block and then a belaying point at the shelves?

[allanyed]

24 minutes ago, wefalck said:

Perhaps a single block and then a belaying point

Exactly what I was contemplating Eberhard,

Thanks again!

Allan

[iMustBeCrazy]

8 hours ago, allanyed said:

LIke below?

Allan, something like this seems the norm:

 

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-67278

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-68522

https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-248094

 

Shrouds seem optional?

[allanyed]

A little more detail has been added.  Thoughts?  The two indicated lines had me in a quandry until I studied the photos of the Medway boat model at RMG.  I am still debating if there would be a single shroud for each mast on each side, or two as on the Medway model.

Thanks!!

Allan

 

Edited December 13, 2022 by allanyed

[wefalck]

I suppose it depends on how trusting you are in your rope and how quickly you want to strike the rigging. In ships' boats this usually has to be done fast and in perhaps rough conditions, so minimal rigging would be of advantage. On the other hand it looks, as if the set up of the forestay would not be so easy to loosen, there is a lot of friction in the deadeye and the holes in the stem. But then, it may be only necessary to lift up the mast by a couple of inches in order to get it clear of the mast-spur. Then it could be laid down.

[iMustBeCrazy]

3 hours ago, allanyed said:

I am still debating if there would be a single shroud for each mast on each side, or two as on the Medway model.

Allan, after a bit of headbanging I have the following to offer.

 

Using the Steel tables in Boats of Men-of-War:

 

Looking at "The dimensions of rigging........." pages 98/99 we find it based on ship classes not boat lengths so we have to find a class of ship that had a 23ft launch. On to "Boat establishments 1670-1800" on page 57.

 

Note there is no mention of launches before 1780 and as of Nov 1780 Launches are to replace Longboats.

 

So we find that in 1781 fifth rate 36s & 32s have a 23ft or 24ft launch.

 

Back to pages 98/99.

 

And we find no Launches listed even though they were to replace Longboats starting 14 years earlier.

 

So we'll use the Longboat info for 36s or 32s which both give:

 

Shrouds-  4 off, 3" rope, iron thimble 16 fathoms.

 Laniard - 1" rope 8 fathoms.

Stay - 1 off, 3 1/2" rope, iron thimble 5 fathoms.

 Laniard - 1" rope 2 fathoms.

 

Note: the lengths in red were omitted from Boats of Men-of-War. They seem to include some spare rope.

 

So, 4 shrouds means 2 per mast each with a thimble at the end.

 

I assume that the shroud laniards run from the boat up through the thimble back to the boat giving a 2:1 pull. Where the stay goes, probably from the main mast but........

 

 

However, there is no mention of shrouds or stays for any boat type but Longboats and Bligh's wording is not clear. But if shrouds already existed and attached with laniards as above then there would already have been support for the canvas splash screens. It's still a puzzle.

[Roger Pellett]

How about no stays?  With shrouds led slightly aft they might have been unnecessary.

 

Roger

[allanyed]

Craig,

The only reference as to length is Bligh's request to replace the 20 foot launch with a 23 foot launch.  The plans you and I have been referencing are for 23 foot launches and they do fit the time frame.

 

Roger,

I agree that back stays may not be needed, but stays leading forward??   There is so little contemporary information on boat rigging that guesses are not unusual for us.  The only detailed contemporary model I can find that is rigged is the Medway long boat.  RMG has modern models as well but I have my doubts as to their accuracy.  I have yet to find a detailed contemporary rigging plan and would sure welcome one!

 

Thanks guys.

 

Allan

 

[Roger Pellett]

The Medway Longboat is of course much different from the boat that you and Craig are discussing as she is sloop rigged.  Furthermore, I wonder if her rigging has been tampered with as is the case with many of these old models.  I based my Longboat model on the drawing in May’s book.  The rigging shown is particularly interesting and workable compared to some. Features on the Medway model.

 

Paintings and drawings of two masted lug rigged boats in hid book (see cover painting) show masts further apart than sketch above.  Rig is also a ketch with mainsail forward.  Mays also raises the possibility that these two masted rigs might have employed sprit sails.

 

Roger

Edited December 14, 2022 by Roger Pellett

[iMustBeCrazy]

7 hours ago, allanyed said:

The only reference as to length is Bligh's request to replace the 20 foot launch with a 23 foot launch.  The plans you and I have been referencing are for 23 foot launches and they do fit the time frame.

Allan, Bligh wrote "The Size of the Boat was 23 feet from Stem to Stern and Rowed Six Oars" in a letter to Banks (fact 8). I'm fairly happy that the drawing in Bligh's books (RMG ZAZ7848) is a good representation of the Bounty Launch and that ZAZ7361 is an evolution of that based on Bligh's experience. But I could be wrong.

 

1 hour ago, Roger Pellett said:

The Medway Longboat is of course much different from the boat that you and Craig are discussing

She certainly is Ollie. (Laurel and Hardy).

 

8 hours ago, allanyed said:

I have yet to find a detailed contemporary rigging plan and would sure welcome one!

Me too!

 

1 hour ago, Roger Pellett said:

Paintings and drawings of two masted lug rigged boats in hid book (see cover painting) show masts further apart than sketch above.

They show a Main and Mizzen, a common rig on boats, but Bligh makes the following notes in his log:

1/ It was about 8 o’clock at Night when I bore away under a reefed Lug foresail

2/ under close reefs Fore Sl. & Main Sail

 

So the Launch had Main and Fore masts with a lug sail on the fore and probably (but not certainly) the main.

 

 

 

[allanyed]

1 hour ago, Roger Pellett said:

The Medway Longboat is of course much different from the boat that you and Craig are discussing as she is sloop rigged

Hi Roger,

No argument from me on that at all.  That said, the lines such as stays and shrouds may still be valid.  In addition I have played with the rig holding up the yard as alternative to the yard having a parrel and halyard reeving over a sheave within the mast.  I have drawn both versions but not sure which was most likely used in this case.  I am good with either choice unless if I can a find more definitive information.   Lavery mentions that the shrouds were for stresses from both the sides and aft on page 227 of The Arming and Fitting of English Ships of War and "forestays braced the mast against pressures from forward on page 228."  He makes no mention of backstays, so that question that I had seems to be answered.

 

1 hour ago, Roger Pellett said:

Paintings and drawings of two masted lug rigged boats in his book (see cover painting) show masts further apart than sketch above.

This may very well have been the case  but as the launch was single masted when built, then modified during the Bounty voyage to the South Pacific, it has not been possible to find if the masts were farther apart or not.  I show it about 6 inches aft of midships.   The basis I used was a two masted cutter drawing ZAZ7022 of 1786.  The aft mast is just about dead center along her length.  Note that in this plan the forward mast is only about 10% of her overall length aft of the bow where as the launch original mast was 18% of the overall length aft of the bow.   I have no idea if this played a factor in locating the aft mast.    Also Lavery shows a photo on page 217 where the masts are separated by only two thwarts between the two that support the masts as I have shown.  I realize this is a cutter in his photo, but the spacing principals may still apply.  In any case the below is what I have come up with for now.   

 

Again, any definitive information to the contrary on any of the above is MOST welcome.

 

Thanks for everyone's input, it is greatly appreciated.

 

Allan

 

 

 

[iMustBeCrazy]

1 hour ago, allanyed said:

This may very well have been the case  but as the launch was single masted when built, then modified during the Bounty voyage to the South Pacific

Allan, I still have been unable to find anything that supports either of these suggestions.

The closest to the single mast idea I can find comes from McKay but a cutter rig on a mast that far forward makes little sense.

 

 

None of Bligh's writings or logs that I can find ever mention working on the rigging of any of the boats during the voyage (with the exception of the fitting two shrouds to each mast after the mutiny). There are mentions of "carpenters working on launch" or "carpenters working on boats", in one instance to repair damage incurred during a storm, but just as "I'm keeping the crew busy" type log notes.

 

I'd love to know what your source is.

[allanyed]

 I am basing this on the drawings we have been using as they show only one mast.  Maybe she was built to have two masts originally, but then these drawings are open to question and possibly not reliable in other respects.  The logs etc. indicate two masts but the drawings supposedly included in the Bligh papers show only one.  Very confusing, at least to me.  There is a lot of misinformation, including the modern models at RMG.  Another example is at https://historycollection.com/the-mutinous-voyage-of-william-bligh-and-the-bountys-launch/8/  He posts a plan showing one mast but then goes on to say in the very first sentence that the launch had two masts.   

Allan

 

 

[iMustBeCrazy]

41 minutes ago, allanyed said:

Very confusing, at least to me.  There is a lot of misinformation

You aren't alone

 

It's why I try to clearly differentiate between facts and guesses/beliefs (when I remember to).

 

A guess re the drawings is that it was up to the ship/captain to rig the boats (perhaps within limits) and the mast at the bow was common to the then current choices which seem to be:

 

Main at the bow, mizzen at the transom. Possibly the most common rig from the number of painting and sketches.

Schooner/Lugger, Fore at the bow, main about midships. As you have it above and Steel suggests for Longboats and Launches (although there are several 30ft plus single masted Longboats).

Three masted. Fore, main and mizzen.

 

Single mast for smaller (under 18ft) boats. And perhaps for those drawings where no mast is shown?

 

And of course, exceptions to every rule.

 

No wonder we get confused.

 

However, we are pretty certain the Bounty launch had two masts at the time of the mutiny (although three is possible, but very doubtful), a main and a fore.

[Roger Pellett]

The Longboat rig shown in the drawing in May’s book does not have backstays.

 

In 2018 we stayed in St. Ives in Cornwall while touring the UK.  There were two lug rigged boats in the harbor that apparently sailed on a regular schedule with passengers. Every afternoon they would sail into the harbor which required several tacks.  While the rig may be called a dipping lug, each tack involved completely dropping the sail and resetting it.  In that case the sail could always be set on the lee side of the stay.

 

Furthermore, Bligh was making a long passage, not tacking into a small harbor every day.  He could set his sails anticipating that he could remain on the same tack for quite a while.  

 

What I am saying is that stays could be rigged as he saw fit without being concerned about fouling the sails.

 

Roger

Edited December 15, 2022 by Roger Pellett