tkay11 Posted March 25, 2023 Share #1 Posted March 25, 2023 I have been reading the monograph of La Créole and Boudriot makes reference to a 'brajart' while describing a long barque of the 17th Century. He said he could not find the exact meaning, but made a guess based on the context. I thought it might be of Dutch origin, but couldn't find the word online, and wondered if any of our multi-lingual members might provide a more accurate translation. The paragraph in French is as follows, my own translation subsequent to it. "Parmi les éléments, il est cité « un petit brajart » de 20 pieds de long, 4 pouces de diamètre et 6 pouces de ton. Je suppose que cet élément de mâture sous un nom que j’ignorai est un arc-boutant permettant d’établir un foc, latéralement à l’allure vent arrière ou grand largue et par beau temps." "Amongst the elements, reference is made to “a small brajart” 20 feet long, 4 inches in diameter and 6 inches at its head. I presume that this element of masting, whose term I don't know, is a boom that could be used to establish a jib laterally for a following wind or when sailing quarter to the wind and in good weather." I would be very interested in the etymology of this term, and, if anyone knows, its accurate meaning. Thanks for any interest! Tony mtaylor and thibaultron 2 Quote === First build: Caldercraft HM Cutter Sherbourne 1763 FINISHED 2nd build: Triton cross-section COMPLETED 3rd build: La Chaloupe Armée / 42ft Armed Longboat of 1834 by tkay11 – scale 1:36, plans by M. Delacroix COMPLETED 4th build: Allège d’Arles 1833 (Ancre) POB by tkay11 – scale 1:100, plans by F. Fissore COMPLETED Working on La Jacinthe 1:96 POB (ANCRE publications) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allanyed Posted March 25, 2023 Share #2 Posted March 25, 2023 Tony, Well there goes 20 minutes I will never get back. I could not find anything.🤪 If really important, you might want to try contacting the maritime museum in Paris. https://www.musee-marine.fr/paris thibaultron, mtaylor and tkay11 3 Quote PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series. Click on http://trafalgar.tv There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time. THANK YOU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce d Posted March 25, 2023 Share #3 Posted March 25, 2023 An 1894 French-Italian dictionary titled 'Premier essai d'un dictionnaire niçois, français, italien' has this page: I have no idea what it means, but it is there ... thibaultron, mtaylor and tkay11 3 Quote 🌻 STAY SAFE A model shipwright and an amateur historian are heads & tails of the same coin current builds: HMS Berwick 1775, 1/192 scratchbuild; a Slade 74 in the Navy Board style Mediator sloop, 1/48 - an 18th century transport scratchbuild French longboat - CAF - 1/48, on hold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkay11 Posted March 25, 2023 Author Share #4 Posted March 25, 2023 Sorry for those lost 20 minutes, Allan, but thanks as well. Well found, Bruce, at least it's a start with a variety of meanings related to brajà. Gracchiatore seems to mean 'croak' in Italian but it must have had a different meaning in the 17th century. Does it signify that brajart was a Niçois word? Jaseur I cannot find yet either. Tony thibaultron and mtaylor 2 Quote === First build: Caldercraft HM Cutter Sherbourne 1763 FINISHED 2nd build: Triton cross-section COMPLETED 3rd build: La Chaloupe Armée / 42ft Armed Longboat of 1834 by tkay11 – scale 1:36, plans by M. Delacroix COMPLETED 4th build: Allège d’Arles 1833 (Ancre) POB by tkay11 – scale 1:100, plans by F. Fissore COMPLETED Working on La Jacinthe 1:96 POB (ANCRE publications) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allanyed Posted March 25, 2023 Share #5 Posted March 25, 2023 This is a long reach and I am sure is totally wrong, but lacking anything better ...... A gracchiatore translates to croaker. A croaker is a kind of fish. Maybe it is named after the type of fish???? Yeah, I know, I know,,,, I can hear the groaning, but that's the best I can come up with. Allan bruce d, mtaylor, thibaultron and 1 other 4 Quote PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series. Click on http://trafalgar.tv There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time. THANK YOU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solution bruce d Posted March 25, 2023 Solution Share #6 Posted March 25, 2023 ... and to keep the lateral movement lively, I believe 'jaseur' is French for 'waxwing', a bird. So, it's a small fish-bird about 20 feet long that is really a boom and at it's best in good weather. Glad to help, anytime. Mark P, Shotlocker, mtaylor and 2 others 5 Quote 🌻 STAY SAFE A model shipwright and an amateur historian are heads & tails of the same coin current builds: HMS Berwick 1775, 1/192 scratchbuild; a Slade 74 in the Navy Board style Mediator sloop, 1/48 - an 18th century transport scratchbuild French longboat - CAF - 1/48, on hold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkay11 Posted March 25, 2023 Author Share #7 Posted March 25, 2023 Croak, croak, or do I mean groan, groan. 20ft, so could be a shark, then. Provençal seems the likeliest at the moment, though none of the current Provençal-French online dictionaries have provided anything, although brajà can mean 'brague' in French or 'breeching rope' (which could be 20ft long but possibly not 4ins diameter for a 50ft long barque with 4-pounders). Tony thibaultron and mtaylor 2 Quote === First build: Caldercraft HM Cutter Sherbourne 1763 FINISHED 2nd build: Triton cross-section COMPLETED 3rd build: La Chaloupe Armée / 42ft Armed Longboat of 1834 by tkay11 – scale 1:36, plans by M. Delacroix COMPLETED 4th build: Allège d’Arles 1833 (Ancre) POB by tkay11 – scale 1:100, plans by F. Fissore COMPLETED Working on La Jacinthe 1:96 POB (ANCRE publications) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baker Posted March 25, 2023 Share #8 Posted March 25, 2023 The French text translated into Dutch Onder de elementen wordt genoemd "een kleine brajart" van 20 voet lang, 4 inch in diameter en 6 inch in toon. Ik veronderstel dat dit mastelement onder een naam die ik niet kende een luchtboog is die het mogelijk maakt een fok te vestigen, zijdelings met de wind mee of met volle reikwijdte en bij goed weer. Fok in English = fore sail It can be a curved yard for the fore sail (20 feet long 4 inch in diameter and a curve from 6 inch) To be able to make full use of the fore sail in good weather. There is no guarantee that this is the answer 😇😉 mtaylor, tkay11, bruce d and 1 other 4 Quote Regards, Patrick Finished : Soleil Royal Heller 1/100 Wasa Billing Boats Bounty Revell 1/110 plastic (semi scratch) Pelican / Golden Hind 1/45 scratch Current build : Mary Rose 1/50 scratch Gallery : Revell Bounty Pelican/Golden hind 1/45 scratch To do : Prins Willem Corel, Le Tonnant Corel, Yacht d'Oro Corel, Thermopylae Sergal Shore leave, non ship models build logs : ADGZ M35 funkwagen 1/72 Einhets Pkw. Kfz.2 and 4 1/72 Autoblinda AB40 1/72 122mm A-19 & 152mm ML-20 & 12.8cm Pak.44 {K8 1/2} 1/72 10.5cm Howitzer 16 on Mark. VI(e) Centurion Mk.1 conversion M29 Weasel 1/72 SAM6 1/72 T26 Finland T26 TN 1/72 Autoprotetto S37 1/72 Opel Blitz buses 1/72 Boxer and MAN trucks 1/72 Hetzer38(t) Starr 1/72 Si vis pacem, para bellum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkay11 Posted March 25, 2023 Author Share #9 Posted March 25, 2023 @Baker: Thanks, Patrick. What a clever idea. That's the best yet. Sounds very likely. Perhaps near closure. I'll keep this open for the while in case there's confirmation, but it sounds as though Boudriot had the same idea, which is pretty confirmatory for me. Tony thibaultron, Baker and mtaylor 2 1 Quote === First build: Caldercraft HM Cutter Sherbourne 1763 FINISHED 2nd build: Triton cross-section COMPLETED 3rd build: La Chaloupe Armée / 42ft Armed Longboat of 1834 by tkay11 – scale 1:36, plans by M. Delacroix COMPLETED 4th build: Allège d’Arles 1833 (Ancre) POB by tkay11 – scale 1:100, plans by F. Fissore COMPLETED Working on La Jacinthe 1:96 POB (ANCRE publications) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkay11 Posted March 25, 2023 Author Share #10 Posted March 25, 2023 Hmm. I think I rushed to judgement in my excitement. Now that I've had time after supper, I had a more careful look at the Dutch translation. I think that the French-Dutch translation just repeats Boudriot's idea, and doesn't provide a direct translation of 'brajart'. The English translation of the French 'foc' is 'jib', as I had originally translated. So I'll keep trying. Tony Baker, mtaylor and bruce d 3 Quote === First build: Caldercraft HM Cutter Sherbourne 1763 FINISHED 2nd build: Triton cross-section COMPLETED 3rd build: La Chaloupe Armée / 42ft Armed Longboat of 1834 by tkay11 – scale 1:36, plans by M. Delacroix COMPLETED 4th build: Allège d’Arles 1833 (Ancre) POB by tkay11 – scale 1:100, plans by F. Fissore COMPLETED Working on La Jacinthe 1:96 POB (ANCRE publications) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkay11 Posted April 10, 2023 Author Share #11 Posted April 10, 2023 @bruce d seems to have been closest by saying that 'jaseur' is the French name for the waxwing, a passerine bird spread widely in Northern Europe and the USA, although we still have no answer. Gérard Delacroix has told me that a 'jaseur' and its equivalent 'croasseur' (in Italian) signifies a person who shouts or speaks very loudly, so the meaning of the two words is close. When he typed 'brajart oiseau' into his computer it was linked to another bird a 'bruant' which can be translated as 'bunting' which is another passerine, and derives from the word 'bruant'. So Gérard couldn't say whether there was any real link as Jean Boudriot used turns of phrase that were in very complicated French and hard to translate and often hard to understand. However, Gérard very imaginatively and poetically suggested that several French nautical terms such as 'le perroquet' or parrot (topgallant), 'le cacatois' or sound of a bird's cry (royal), 'la perruche' or parrakeet (mizzen topgallant) are also linked to birds, a 'brajart' could certainly be one of them. Of course, since he could not find any other mention of 'brajart' we'll have to leave it with the Provençal as the source. Bruce is hence awarded the prize! Tony bruce d, thibaultron and mtaylor 2 1 Quote === First build: Caldercraft HM Cutter Sherbourne 1763 FINISHED 2nd build: Triton cross-section COMPLETED 3rd build: La Chaloupe Armée / 42ft Armed Longboat of 1834 by tkay11 – scale 1:36, plans by M. Delacroix COMPLETED 4th build: Allège d’Arles 1833 (Ancre) POB by tkay11 – scale 1:100, plans by F. Fissore COMPLETED Working on La Jacinthe 1:96 POB (ANCRE publications) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruce d Posted April 10, 2023 Share #12 Posted April 10, 2023 Aw shucks. thibaultron, mtaylor and tkay11 3 Quote 🌻 STAY SAFE A model shipwright and an amateur historian are heads & tails of the same coin current builds: HMS Berwick 1775, 1/192 scratchbuild; a Slade 74 in the Navy Board style Mediator sloop, 1/48 - an 18th century transport scratchbuild French longboat - CAF - 1/48, on hold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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