'Tidy up the Spaghetti'

[piratepete007]

Hi Folks,

Building models is always open to individual interpretation and I fully respect what everybody does but I am wondering if somebody can assist me. Gun tackles are always a challenge in whether to include side tackles, train tackles and breech ropes and I appreciate all the intricacies involved.

 

However, there is one aspect of rigging that I have not resolved - in my mind, at least - due in part to a post I read on MSW by Stockholm Tar, 21 July 2014 ... that I had kept in my own files ...

 

  “Ropes left lying on deck would probably never dry out, being repeatedly wetted by either salt or fresh water. If you consider a deck (with rope coils laid on it) which has just been rained on, or a sea has come over the side, the deck itself might gradually dry out, but you can bet that that part of it under the coils will still remain wet or damp – an ideal situation for rot to set in.

 

Apart from that a heavy sea coming aboard would also leave the coils in a hopeless tangle, so coils on deck are also a safety hazard. From experience, the only time you would normally see a large amount of rope on deck, is when the ship is either setting or furling sail, or engaged in some manouvre such as tacking or wearing… The last order normally given after such an operation was to 'tidy up the spaghetti' – ie, coil up, and hang the running rigging from its pin “.

 

Many modelers like to show the side tackles in a tight coil, sometimes known as a cheese, beside the gun, but I think this was usually only done for inspection purposes … During action of course, they probably wouldn't have been coiled at all”. Majority of builds have the barrels projecting out and are therefore ready for action.

 

So ... it appears that when builders attach the side tackles, a few add the rope coils onto the adjacent deck but most just don't show this excess rope at all. If this rope is hung as suggested in the above quote, there must have been a series of pins along the inner bulwark walls ?

 

Does anybody have any specific comments on this and especially a photo or two to show these ropes hanging during the normal running of a ship ?

 

Thanks in anticipation,

Pete

 

 

 

 

 

 

[popeye2sea]

Pete,

When not ready for battle the cannons would have been secured by lashing to the bulwarks of the ship. The free ends of the side tackles would be frapped (wrapped) around the fall.

 

Regards,

Henry

[Dr PR]

Pete,

 

I wondered about the same thing. There are a few threads about gun tackles. Here is what I ended up doing:

 

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/19611-albatros-by-dr-pr-mantua-scale-148-revenue-cutter-kitbash-about-1815/?do=findComment&comment=1003150

 

I have seen this used on several models and some museum ships. I have also seen drawings of the falls coiled on the side of the gun carriage like this:

 

https://modelshipworld.com/topic/19611-albatros-by-dr-pr-mantua-scale-148-revenue-cutter-kitbash-about-1815/?do=findComment&comment=1004278

 

You are right about the ropes coiled on the deck. There is no way a ship at sea would have loose ropes flailing about the deck! This is a common practice on museum ships today, and might have been used on the real ships when they were open for visitors. It is just for show.

 

[piratepete007]

Thanks for your reply Phil. What you have done with the falls on the Albatross makes sense. 

[Jim Lad]

Whenever we start a conversation about the tidiness of rope ends on ships - especially naval ships - I am always drawn to this painting of HMS Deal Castle - I especially enjoy the goat lazing on the quarter deck!

 

John

 

[allanyed]

There are drawings of secured guns from Congreve's Treatise on the Mounting of Sea Service Ordnance, Falconer's Universal Dictionary of the Marine and Dupin's Voyages dans la Grande Bretagne that can be found on pages 382-388 in volume II of Caruana's The History of English Sea Ordnance

 

For secured guns no lines are lying on the deck. Train tackle is of course removed completely and the running out rigging is frapped.  The two most common methods SEEM to be a gun run in, secured and housed and at times the guns could be secured run out.   The following are from page 382 of Caruana's The History of English Sea Ordnance ISBN 0-948864-22-2  He does not show any drawings where the guns were turned 90 degrees so they faced fore and aft and were secured to the bulk heads.  There may be differences for Armstrong Frederick pattern guns and earlier patterns compared to the Blomefields shown below but I suspect they would all be similar with lines off the deck.  

Allan

[piratepete007]

17 hours ago, Jim Lad said:

Whenever we start a conversation about the tidiness of rope ends on ships - especially naval ships - I am always drawn to this painting of HMS Deal Castle - I especially enjoy the goat lazing on the quarter deck!

 

John

 

John, what a smile that image brought to my mind. We can get so carried away with technicalities that we overlook the realities. Its a great picture.

Pete

 

[piratepete007]

13 hours ago, allanyed said:

There are drawings of secured guns from Congreve's Treatise on the Mounting of Sea Service Ordnance, Falconer's Universal Dictionary of the Marine and Dupin's Voyages dans la Grande Bretagne that can be found on pages 382-388 in volume II of Caruana's The History of English Sea Ordnance

 

For secured guns no lines are lying on the deck. Train tackle is of course removed completely and the running out rigging is frapped.  The two most common methods SEEM to be a gun run in, secured and housed and at times the guns could be secured run out.   The following are from page 382 of Caruana's The History of English Sea Ordnance ISBN 0-948864-22-2  He does not show any drawings where the guns were turned 90 degrees so they faced fore and aft and were secured to the bulk heads.  There may be differences for Armstrong Frederick pattern guns and earlier patterns compared to the Blomefields shown below but I suspect they would all be similar with lines off the deck.  

Allan

Allan, thanks for taking the time to present that detailed set of references - will be invaluable. Pete