Pitan Posted January 3 Share #1 Posted January 3 Hello I am currently building Captain John Smith’s shallop (link), which has a spirit sail. I am concerned that, as kitted, the spirit (yard) sits too far ahead of the mast, and wouldn't be practical in a working boat. I am aware of two reproduction shallops that have similar arrangements (the Chesapeake Bay shallop, and the Elizabeth Tilly of Plymouth/Mayflower), but don't think these rely (relied) entirely on sails or oars. The nearest working vessels I can see that use spirits are Thames barges. Their spirits tend to be much shorter ahead of the mast. Should I build the spirit as kitted - is that a likely arrangement? If not, how should I revise that part of the rig? (FWIW: I don't believe we have any surviving shallops, but I would like something that could have worked.) Keith Black and mtaylor 2 Quote Robert Current: HM Cutter Sherbourne (Vanguard Models), Captain John Smith's Shallop Finished: 15th century wooden boat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
allanyed Posted January 3 Share #2 Posted January 3 This might not be much help, but the era is about right (1622) https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-12211 Allan mtaylor and Pitan 1 1 Quote PLEASE take 30 SECONDS and sign up for the epic Nelson/Trafalgar project if you would like to see it made into a TV series. Click on http://trafalgar.tv There is no cost other than the 30 seconds of your time. THANK YOU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pitan Posted January 3 Author Share #3 Posted January 3 (edited) 17 minutes ago, allanyed said: This might not be much help, but the era is about right (1622) https://www.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/rmgc-object-12211 Allan Thanks Allan I couldn't see that image (there is some issue between my PC and the images at Greenwich), but Googling lead to this picture of Dutch mussel fishers, https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/mussel-fishing-175360 that I can see. Edited January 3 by Pitan Spelling (Greenwich), and the fishers are Dutch allanyed and mtaylor 2 Quote Robert Current: HM Cutter Sherbourne (Vanguard Models), Captain John Smith's Shallop Finished: 15th century wooden boat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pitan Posted January 3 Author Share #4 Posted January 3 And this, (Dutch again) https://www.ad.nl/zeeland/zeeuws-genootschap-krijgt-twee-eeuwenoude-zeeuwse-schilderijen~a8742759/140613311/ Several vessels with spirits there. mtaylor and allanyed 2 Quote Robert Current: HM Cutter Sherbourne (Vanguard Models), Captain John Smith's Shallop Finished: 15th century wooden boat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pitan Posted January 4 Author Share #5 Posted January 4 (edited) These Dutch paintings are proving interesting, if complex. Calm: Two Dutch Vessels https://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/paintings/studio-of-willem-van-de-velde-calm-two-dutch-vessels Studio of Willem van de Velde A Dutch Vessel in a Strong Breeze https://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/paintings/willem-van-de-velde-a-dutch-vessel-in-a-strong-breeze Willem van de Velde Interesting uses of the sprit to manage the main sail. Side note: Thames barges often use brailing lines. These have been unusual in the 17c paintings, so far, I've only seen them in work by Willem van de Velde: A Dutch Ship and Other Small Vessels in a Strong Breeze https://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/paintings/willem-van-de-velde-a-dutch-ship-and-other-small-vessels-in-a-strong-breeze Edited January 4 by Pitan Added example image showing brailing lines in use mtaylor and allanyed 2 Quote Robert Current: HM Cutter Sherbourne (Vanguard Models), Captain John Smith's Shallop Finished: 15th century wooden boat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wefalck Posted January 4 Share #6 Posted January 4 Perhaps it would be worthwhile to consult LEATHER, J. (1979): Spritsails and Lugsails.- 392 p., London (Granada Publishing). though he focuses more on the later 19th and early 20th century. mtaylor, Pitan and Harvey Golden 2 1 Quote wefalck panta rhei - Everything is in flux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pitan Posted January 5 Author Share #7 Posted January 5 Thanks @wefalck, that should be an interesting read, though not cheap. One more image from Willem van de Velde: Dutch Ships and Small Vessels Offshore in a Breeze https://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/paintings/willem-van-de-velde-dutch-ships-and-small-vessels-offshore-in-a-breeze Presuming this is a spritsail, this shows the sail's peak attached directly to the spirit without a block. It also gives better clues as to how the flag (?) worked. mtaylor 1 Quote Robert Current: HM Cutter Sherbourne (Vanguard Models), Captain John Smith's Shallop Finished: 15th century wooden boat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wefalck Posted January 5 Share #8 Posted January 5 On smaller boats the peak would have an eye in the boltrope that then is slipped over the end of the sprit. Indeed, that is the advantage of a spritsail, that is collapses quickly, once you lift the throat out of the sling at the mast, a kind of safety feature on small boats. The boat in the middle of van de Velde's painting seem to have a sort of standing sprit and the sail is hoisted with a peak- and throat-halliard running through blocks attached to the spar and the mast respectively. The sail still can be collapsed by lifting the sprit out from the sling at the mast, as is shown on the boat to the right in front of the larger vessel. However, all the boat shown seem to have tackles to manage the lower end of the sprit. This arrangement allows to move the sprit to a more horizontal position, which presumably balances the sail area better relative to the boat when running before the wind. mtaylor and Pitan 1 1 Quote wefalck panta rhei - Everything is in flux Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pitan Posted January 6 Author Share #9 Posted January 6 Thanks welfalk, that is extremely helpful. Based on our discussion, I think I have a possible rigging scheme shown in the build thread for the model. mtaylor 1 Quote Robert Current: HM Cutter Sherbourne (Vanguard Models), Captain John Smith's Shallop Finished: 15th century wooden boat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amateur Posted January 6 Share #10 Posted January 6 (edited) In addition to what Wefalck writes:in VN de Veldes time, the sprit was set in a sling at the foot of the mast, the sling itself was attached to the top op the mast: no need to lift the (very heavy) sprit ot of its sling: gravity helped the foot go up as the tackle on the lower end was loosened. It was not unusual to have this sling made from forged iron shackles. The lenght of the sprit varies greatly between periods, regions, shiptype, and preference of the ship-owner. I have read somewhere that the high-peaked spritsails were thought to have an advantage at certain wind-conditions. there are various books around showing these arrangements. But: far too heavy and complex for a small vessel. Jan Edited January 6 by amateur mtaylor and Pitan 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pitan Posted January 6 Author Share #11 Posted January 6 Thanks Jan I've seen metal chains on some late 19c - early 20c Thames barges that might be similar to your slings? The working was very different; the sprit sails on the barges usually have brailing lines to furl the sails. mtaylor 1 Quote Robert Current: HM Cutter Sherbourne (Vanguard Models), Captain John Smith's Shallop Finished: 15th century wooden boat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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