Help with 9lb cannon carraiges, Long 9's

[newbee]

I have posed this question on my build log but thought I would also try here. I will try to keep it simple. Basically I am stuck with the size of the carraiges required for the 9lb long cannons. I believe that all the dimensions of the barrel and carraige were determind by the bore. My problem is that the 9lb long barrels are too long for the carraiges I have. The ship I have taken on is HMS Diana which I believe would have carried the long 9's on the fore and quarter decks. Should the carraiges for these be larger than the standard 9lb carraige. I've searched online for a couple of evenings and have had no luck with this. Any help would be really appreciated. 

Thanks.

David. 

[allanyed]

Hi David

This is a very interesting subject.   The carriages varied in length with the barrels at some point.  For example, on pages 369 and 370 in Caruana's Volume II of The History of English Sea Ordnance, from drawings in the British Library he shows the 1732 pattern for a 7 foot long 6 pounder was 4' &1/2" long.  The carriage for an 8 foot 6 pounder was 5 feet long, thus the added length was about that of the added length of the barrel.  By the same token, on page 371 he shows a carriage for a 7 foot long 9 pounder at 4' 8" long.  He shows a 24 pounder 9' 6" long having a carriage of 6 feet long.  He shows more carriages but does not give the barrel lengths so perhaps the carriages did not vary with barrel length at all times.  The following may give you some help.  

The Robertson Treatise of 1775, https://books.google.ca/books?id=Ww8Fg5rD8hsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=robertson+treatise+of+mathematical+instruments&hl=en&sa=X&ei=_BPoU-DtFYWjyATihoLgDw&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false 

 

and the treatise of Katrina Bunyard, 2019,  https://thescholarship.ecu.edu/bitstream/handle/10342/7250/BUNYARD-MASTERSTHESIS-2019.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

 

In addition to the dimensional information, assuming Diana was outfitted with Blomefield pattern guns, the carriages may have had cleats which were introduced about the time of Diana.  Drawing showing these, based on those in Caruana, is below as jpg and PDF.

Allan

1795 pattern carriage 24 pounder.PDF

 

[druxey]

(Cleats are those little bumper-like projections on the front of the carriage cheeks,)

[mgdawson]

Had a look in Anatomy of the Ship - Diana, it lists 8' 18 pounders on the upper deck, 7'6" 9 pounders as chase guns on the f'cstle & 7' 9 pounders on the quarterdeck plus 32 lb carronades on the f'cstle & quarterdeck, unfortunately it only has carriage drawings for the 18 pounder & carronades.

 

Perhaps one of the other AotS books has the requisite drawings.

[allanyed]

31 minutes ago, mgdawson said:

8' 18 pounders on the upper deck, 7'6" 9 pounders as chase guns on the f'cstle & 7' 9

The shape/design of the carriages for the Blomefield pattern above or in Caruana can probably be used as well as those by David White in the AOTS book.  The lengths will need some adjustment for each length barrel.  In addition Caruana goes into detail that the distance between the brackets should be one inch more than the widths for the diameters at the reinforce rings.   Another interesting point is that the carriages were usually painted red due to costs. He goes on to say that not only were they painted, they were on a schedule to be repainted every 9 months.  He also mentions that on occasion they were painted white or even gold.   Unpainted carriages, to me, look great as the details are more obvious, but if requested I will go with the red in the future.  

 

36 minutes ago, mgdawson said:

Anatomy of the Ship - Diana,

Mark,

I agree, the carriage drawings on pages 106 and 107 are well done and look to be 1791 version used with Blomefields.  

Allan

[newbee]

I am sorry I didn't get any notifications on your responses. Thank you all for your input. Alan, I thought you would have some knowledge of this. In between posting my question and now I remembered that Chris (Vanguard) had expanded his range of cannons and carriages after I had ordered the carraiges I bought. I had another look earlier and found that, indeed, he now has different sized carraiges for the long 9s and the shorter ones. I should have included photos to help show my dilemma, which I will do now. Hopefully this can help others. The top cannon is the 18 lb'er. Below left is the long 9 on the 18 lb carraige, middle is the 9 long on the standard 9lb carraige and below right is the long 9 on a carraige bought for a previous build but never used. Thanks again fir your help guys. It's very much appreciated. 

David. 

[allanyed]

Hi David

Those are nice looking barrels.   For the future, and  I am sure very few folks outside the ship modeling community will notice or care, but I think they look more like a Borgard or some other pattern rather than Blomefields which had 4 rings between the breech and muzzle and the loop on the cascabel for the breech rope.   Vanguard offers Blomefields that look great and there are 3D drawings of Blomefields here at MSW that you can take/send to a commercial 3D printer and have them made for very attractive prices.  SO FAR I have always paid less than US$1.00 each, including shipping, for 1:64 scale barrels when buying a dozen or more here in the States.

Allan

Edited February 15 by allanyed

[newbee]

Thanks again for your input Allan, The barrels are from Vanguard and I believe are the Armstrong versions. I painted them matt black and then dry brushed with rubber black and then a little matt black mixed with sea grey. I'm pretty happy with the final results. 

David. 

[allanyed]

1 hour ago, newbee said:

The barrels are from Vanguard and I believe are the Armstrong versions.

Hi David

Actually they look like Commonwealth pattern guns which were common between 1650-1710.   Note the number of reinforce rings, the cascable ring on both the Armstrong and Armstrong Fredericks and the loop at the breech/cascable area on the bottom sketch of the Blomefield.   Vanguard offers Blomefield cannon as well and I would guess they are excellent quality.  Regardless, what you have look like nice quality barrels.

Allan

[Lieste]

Borgard fits in between the 'per foundry' Commonwealth and 'Establishment' Armstrong patterns.

They look like a cross between the two (no button astragal, a frieze and astragal on the chase).

[allanyed]

Lieste

Thanks for pointing out the missing Borgard.   See the revision below including the Pitt and Browne patterns as well.  Many of these have been completed in various calibers in 3D by Ron Thibault and posted here at MSW so can be printed in resin. 

Allan