Laptop recommendations?

[Mike Shea]

Good morning all. Just a quick question: Since my knowledge of computer related stuff is pretty much nil does anyone have a good recommendation for a decent laptop computer? Sometime soon I want to get a decent laptop that isn't going to break the bank but yet can also be used in conjunction with photo uploads with a SLR digital camera and maybe even 3d printing or modeling software in the future. I'm currently using a borrowed game console for internet access as I don't have the room in my tiny place for a full blown computer setup. I also really don't want to go the smart phone route either. 

[Kevin-the-lubber]

About a year ago I bought a used Dell Precision 7720 17.3" Laptop: Intel i7, 500GB SSD, 16GB, P3000 for about £650, including a 1 year warranty. It copes just fine with Fusion 360 and the various graphics packages I occasionally use. I wanted the big screen for 3D modelling, so while it is indeed a laptop, I wouldn't want to be carrying this around a lot. But as a portable hi-spec computer its' great.

[Dr PR]

Mike,

 

If all you wanted to do was use email and browse the Internet just about anything would do (even a cell phone).

 

But if you are thinking of doing CAD work a higher clock speed (3+ GHz) and more cores (6+) is better. A video system that supports hardware acceleration (and the software drivers to work with it) is a plus.

 

If you are going to do a lot of photo editing and storage more storage space will be needed (1 Tbyte or more).

 

****

 

A fundamental problem with laptops is heat. All that electronics generates heat, and laptops have a totally inadequate cooling system. So when the processor and power supplies heat up the processor shuts down momentarily to let the cooling system catch up. So even the fastest clocked processors can end up running at a snails pace.

 

Before buying read the reviews on line. Remember that 25% of the reviewers are morons who can't (won't) read and understand instructions and maybe 10% really know what they are talking about. But if a product has less than 70% 5 and 4 star ratings it is probably junk.

[thibaultron]

As far as CAD goes, you do not need a high core count CPU! All, I repeat all, CAD programs are single thread programs! I fell into that mistake when I built my new computer, last year. I have a 12 core CPU and none of my CAD programs were using more than 4 cores! When I investigated, all the 2D and 3D CAD program vendors state, if you look hard enough, that any CAD program has to be single threaded, as, basically, you start from one line,than follow it to the next line etc. CPU speed, on the other hand does matter, as well as how the CPU handles code.

 

I went from a decade old 4 core setup, with a clock speed of about 4GHz, to the latest 12 core AMD 7900X with about 5GHz. In single thread the old one got a score of 450, the 7900X 2400. So it is about 4 times faster. The "Scores" are relative to that particular Benckmark program, the ratios do, however, indicate the relative performance. In multi core tests the old one got about 2K and the 7900X 27K. I have detuned my 7900X to run at a slightly lower total wattage, to lower CPU temperatures, and it runs about 3 to 5% slower, but now stays in the low to high 70C range of temperature, under full load, rather than the 90 to 95C limits the manufacture allows it to run at, for maximum performance. Intel runs in similar temperature ranges. I could have saved some money and gotten the 7600 or 7700 CPUs, as the CPU intensive work I do is mostly CAD and, not video or picture editing. I don't know if Blender falls under the single thread limit.

 

Both the old and new computers use a maximum use 4 cores with my 3D CAD and Sketchup programs. Yes the program is single thread, but I guess some of the tasks can run in parallel.

 

For Graphics and most other processor intensive programs the more cores the better. Also more cores allow you to have multiple CAD programs running without one bogging down the others. For Instance to copy an item from one Sketchup file to another, you need to have two or more Sketchup programs running, with each having one of the items. You copy an item in the first program, then switch to the other program, and paste the that item into the second. You can also have two SU programs running, and have one doing something complex, that will take a long time, and work on a second project, in another SU program while you wait for the other to finish, without slowing everything to a crawl. The CPU intensive operations in my SU work are generally grouping and ungrouping the lines in an object, and importing some non SketchUp file formats. I have an older free version (2017) of SketchUp, so I don't have the other programs that come with the full version.

 

With my old computer, some of the operations might take overnight, on the new computer, a couple hours. Most now finish in a few minutes.

 

With the larger number of cores you can also open other tasks, say a different CAD or Graphics program, and work on those while the SU program calculates.

 

Graphics programs can use multiple cores, so the speed gains are greater.

 

I don't do gaming or video editing, so don't need as high an end a GPU either. I bought the AMD 7600 GPU, and it barely sweats with my workload.

 

If you get a laptop with a replaceable Nvme SSD, you will also see greater speed gains than one with a regular hard drive style SSD drive. That also allows you to replace a failing drive, or expand your capacity.

 

I would highly advise against a MAC! The SSD sticks in them are soldered in, and of a proprietary form factor. Also the most common MAC laptop failure is for the chip that converts the power supply voltage to the different ones needed internally to die. When it does a vast majority of the time, it sends 13 volts to the SSD, frying it, causing the irreversible loss of all your data! No I'm not making it up, I did a lot of research. Apple is increasingly making it impossible for outside vendors to repair them. The latest trick was to start using a "Smart" switch to detect if the laptop is open. If it fails you can buy a new switch to replace it, but not the program needed to program the smart part of the switch! Only an Apple owned repair facility has access to the program. Without that program the computer will not recognize the replacement part.

 

Whichever computer you buy, buy an external drive and frequently back up your files! Even if you have multiple internal drives, and back up the data to another internal drive, a major computer failure, say the power supply, can destroy all the internal drives!

 

Also the minimum RAM I would recommend in a Windows PC is 16GB, with 32 or 64 if you are doing anything other than browsing or word spreadsheet work. As before, if picture or video editing the more memory the better.  I understand that professional video editors regularly run 128GB of RAM. As an example, here is a screen shot of the set of Bogard cannons I am CADing in Sketchup, with this program and the browser I'm writing this response on, I'm using 11GB of memory. Opening a slightly older version of the same file, it goes to 14.6GB. So 32GB would be the minimum I need. I have 64GB, but the additional 32GB of memory came with the bundle deal I got when the CPU, motherboard, and memory bundle I got when buying the components from MicroCenter.

 

 

 

In the graphic above the cannons farther from the center line are the latest version of that particular size. I build them in stages (make the body, add cypher, add trunnions, etc.), saving each stage as I go.

 

 

 

[64Pacific]

Definitely go with what Ron is saying. For my last build (primarily for Siemens Solid Edge) I bought the fastest (per core) processor that I could afford, substituting quantity of cores for speed. The other consideration is graphics hardware. While there is a hefty price difference you will notice a significant speed and stability increase when using professional grade hardware. Gaming graphics, while powerful have different architecture and 3D CAD software is not optimized for this architecture. All of that said, probably the biggest and most inexpensive upgrade that you can make for a 3D CAD machine is an SSD followed by a lot of fast RAM.

[Tossedman]

I use an Apple MacBook Pro, 2019 2.6 GHz 6-Core Intel i7, 16 GB of ram, 1TB SSD. I run Adobe Photoshop 2024 and Illustrator 2024, SketchUp Pro, Fusion 360, Shapr3D, Onshape, TinkerCad, and PrusaSlicer. Backup the SSD regularly using Time Machine to an external SSD. Never had any problems. Regularly exchange documents with PCs. Don't fear Macs, they are great machines. I've been using them since 1984 and have managed networks with over a hundred Macs and have experienced very little in the way of problems. I would replace it with another MacBook Pro in a heartbeat.

 

The best advice though, is to get the kind of computer that whomever is going to be giving you a hand has. If they know Windows, get a Windows computer. If they know Mac, get a Mac. 

 

Cheers,

 

Todd

Edited March 29 by Tossedman

[Dr PR]

Here are a few more comments.

 

1. What CAD program do you want to use? What operating system does it run on? Get a machine that is compatible with the software.

 

2. Multi tasking. I have an old (2013) 3,4 GHz 6 core i7 and Windows will run 12 simultaneous tasks on these. I have seen all 6 cores running 100%, primarily for a single program, and generating a LOT of heat! So multiple cores are used.

 

My CAD program (DesignCAD 3D Max) originated before multiple cores became common. But when it is running it does use multiple cores. Although the main CAD code may run on just one core at a time, it constantly calls other Windows library routines and they use different cores. The operating system is running on a core, and background tasks like checking for email and such run on separate cores. It is not unusual to see all six cores operating while the CAD program is running.

 

3. For high performance CAD rendering (even simple shading and shadows) you need a graphics card that supports OPEN GL and has as many Graphic Processor Units (GPUs) as possible. I strongly recommend nVidia graphics cards - they have been a leader in CAD graphics for decades. You must install the OPEN GL drivers in the operating system to achieve high performance.

 

4. Get the highest bus speed RAM that is compatible with your CPU. Even the highest speed RAM is much slower than the internal CPU data buss. With each memory access there is a relatively long (from the CPU's standpoint) wait period while the RAM access the memory location. Faster RAM means fewer wait states for the processor while the RAM reads or writes the data.

 

Many mother boards offer two RAM configurations - straight 64 Mbyte or interleaved 32 Mbyte. With straight 64 MByte memory each read/write involves a) setting up the address, b) beginning the access, c) waiting for the RAM to access the data and d) transferring the data. Then the next RAM access (a) begins.

 

The interleaved RAM operates faster because while data is being written/red from one bank (c, d) the other bank is starting access for the next data (a, b).

 

CAUTION: Do not fall for the marketing hype about RAM speed! RAM modules have on-board processors that can talk to the BIOS (very lo level part of the operating system) to tell how fast the memory can operate. This allows the machine to adjust internal settings to get the high speeds.

 

BUT

 

Some RAM can operate at the advertised speed at the normal system operating voltages. But if you increase the voltages RAM generally runs faster. So some RAM sticks will try to jack up the voltages. This has two effects. First it increases heat in the system, and that can cause the processor to slow down - no net gain. Worse still, some RAM will try to increase bus voltages above the maximum for the processor, and that fries the processor and/or the bus controller. $$$$ up in smoke!

 

This used to be a problem when marketing scum advertised their low performance (at normal voltages) junk as higher speed than actually rated.

 

Read the reviews and chose the RAM and CPU carefully.