Staghound 1850 by rwiederrich - 1/96 - Extreme Clipper

[rwiederrich]

Another

 

Rob

[Sailor1234567890]

Rob,

In your view, which is his best clipper? By best clipper, I mean the one that best exemplifies the type. To me that rules out medium shapes and places us squarely in the extreme clipper domaine. Pretty, fast, carrying capacity etc. are all qualities to consider. 

 

I'm more a fan of the British "little toy clippers" and of course, Cutty Sark exemplifies the type and is still around to be able to refer to. What's the American "ultimate" clipper similar to how CS is (to me) the ultimate tea clipper.  If Warren Buffet has me in his will, I'll replicate CS. What McKay ship would you replicate 1:1 given the chance?

[Sailor1234567890]

I'm presuming of course, that you don't feel another builder built a better extreme clipper than McKay did. 

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, Sailor1234567890 said:

Rob,

In your view, which is his best clipper? By best clipper, I mean the one that best exemplifies the type. To me that rules out medium shapes and places us squarely in the extreme clipper domaine. Pretty, fast, carrying capacity etc. are all qualities to consider. 

 

I'm more a fan of the British "little toy clippers" and of course, Cutty Sark exemplifies the type and is still around to be able to refer to. What's the American "ultimate" clipper similar to how CS is (to me) the ultimate tea clipper.  If Warren Buffet has me in his will, I'll replicate CS. What McKay ship would you replicate 1:1 given the chance?

@Sailor1234567890 Rob may not agree with my recommendation but here's my answer and why. Based on her two record 89 day performances, anchor to anchor from New York to San Francisco, CA there was no other extreme California clipper that could match the inimitable Boston built 1851 Flying Cloud. Her records stood for over a century and when it was finally beaten, it was done by a racing yacht and not a fully laden merchant sailing ship. To that I say "Apples and oranges." Only one other clipper, Mystic built Andrew Jackson matched her time from New York to the Golden Gate San Francisco Bay. But due to inability to get a Pilot, she waited another day before she could dock. 

 

1 hour ago, Sailor1234567890 said:

Rob,

In your view, which is his best clipper? By best clipper, I mean the one that best exemplifies the type. To me that rules out medium shapes and places us squarely in the extreme clipper domaine. Pretty, fast, carrying capacity etc. are all qualities to consider. 

 

I'm more a fan of the British "little toy clippers" and of course, Cutty Sark exemplifies the type and is still around to be able to refer to. What's the American "ultimate" clipper similar to how CS is (to me) the ultimate tea clipper.  If Warren Buffet has me in his will, I'll replicate CS. What McKay ship would you replicate 1:1 given the chance?

 

Edited Friday at 02:56 AM by ClipperFan
additional information

[rwiederrich]

10 hours ago, Sailor1234567890 said:

Rob,

In your view, which is his best clipper? By best clipper, I mean the one that best exemplifies the type. To me that rules out medium shapes and places us squarely in the extreme clipper domaine. Pretty, fast, carrying capacity etc. are all qualities to consider. 

 

I'm more a fan of the British "little toy clippers" and of course, Cutty Sark exemplifies the type and is still around to be able to refer to. What's the American "ultimate" clipper similar to how CS is (to me) the ultimate tea clipper.  If Warren Buffet has me in his will, I'll replicate CS. What McKay ship would you replicate 1:1 given the chance?

Good question.  I would have to say the fast clippers Lightning or Champion of the Seas. (Both were *extreme* clippers).  Lighting sailed over 436 nautical miles in one day.  and Champion of the Seas sailed over 465 nautical miles in a 24 hour period. Making her one of the  fastest clippers. (Note: McKay had several of his clippers achieve over 465 nautical miles a day).  Both of these ships recorded speeds in excess of 21 knots. Both were over twice as large as CS.  If it were not for the American civil war....we would probably have an American example of a clipper with us today.  The Confederates captured and burned more clippers than were built, during that time period.   Clippers were a truly an American invention.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

11 hours ago, Sailor1234567890 said:

I'm presuming of course, that you don't feel another builder built a better extreme clipper than McKay did. 

No...William Webb and Samual Pook built fine extreme clippers.  Just not as prolific as McKay.

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

16 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob may not agree with my recommendation but here's my answer and why. Based on her two record 89 day performances, anchor to anchor from New York to San Francisco, CA there was no other extreme California clipper that could match the inimitable Boston built 1851 Flying Cloud. 

Oh....I agree...flying Cloud made the fastest passages during the seasons that she made them.  and I agree, she retains that unequaled record for any large 3 masted deep water full rigged ship(to be clear).  But, there IMHV, is more to the qualification as, *Best clipper*, then simply a fast passage.  Far too many contributors need to be taken into consideration.  But a flat out race...if the conditions were right for a 465 mile achievement in a 24 hour period were to be sustained during the entire voyage.....it would be clear who was the fastest vessel afloat.   So many factors need to be considered....such as, hull design(which effects stability and buoyancy), friction coefficients, wind direction and speed, sail dynamics and placement, crew availability and aptitude, and course application.  And the list goes on.  And we haven't even discussed cargo capacity, and ship ergonomics.

When one considers the ease of accessibility in deck arrangements that favors crew egression.....I'de have to stick with clippers like the Lighting and the Donald McKay.

 

So much to choose from...

 

Rob

Edited Friday at 07:24 PM by rwiederrich

[ClipperFan]

Rob, no surprise that I agree with you. McKay's clipper Lightning was the first to pioneer McKay's radical raked keel which for 60' had a gradually curving stem which never had a sharp angle like other clippers of her day. This controversial design so flustered English shipwrights that they attached extra hull forms to fill her out. Fortunately that crap washed off and she performed as McKay intended. This ship was first to pioneer raised catwalk allowing crew to traverse more quickly.

[rwiederrich]

If 465 nautical miles in 24 hours was sustained across the 14,000 mile journey.  Lightning and Champion of the Seas would have made that trip in just over 30 days.  Magine that!😲

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

1 hour ago, ClipperFan said:

This controversial design so flustered English shipwrights that they attached extra hull forms to fill her out. Fortunately that crap washed off and she performed as McKay intended.

Reminds me of when Forest Gump run and broke free from the shackles of his leg braces.......

 

Rob

Edited Friday at 09:22 PM by rwiederrich

[ClipperFan]

While discussing unusual deck arrangements, I read that the Donald McKay had a semi-circular glass door entrance to her aft dining room which was described as having a corresponding extended roof shelteriing above. This leads me to conclude her single catwalk was centrally mounted and intersected this sheltering semi-circular roof. Since she was a very spacious vessel intended more for Australian emigration service, she could be considered a clipper packet.

[rwiederrich]

Setting up the mock masts to determine each mast height and doubling length. 
 

After reviewing Bruce’s Lightning’s lower built masts.  I might consider simply banding them without the chapels.  
 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

15 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Setting up the mock masts to determine each mast height and doubling length. 
 

After reviewing Bruce’s Lightning’s lower built masts.  I might consider simply banding them without the chapels.  
 

Rob

@rwiederrich I total Stag Hound main mast height as 209'. Cornelius McKay's handwritten specs say her main mast height deck to truck is 166'. So her main mast is 44' below deck. Since only the lowermost of each mast is affected, it means her main mast is 44' to her main top as it's 88' total.

Main mast:

lower 88' + hound 14' + top 37' (51' - 14') + hound 9'6" + t'gallant 18'6" (28' - 9'6") + royal 19' + skysail 15' + pole 9' = 210' 

Fore mast:

lower 82' + hound 13' + top 33' (46' - 13') + hound 9' + t'gallant 16' (25' - 9') + royal 17' + skysail 13' + pole 7' = 190'

Mizzen mast:

lower 78' + hound 12' + top 28' (40' - 12') +  hound 8' + t'gallant 14' (22' - 8') + royal 16' + skysail 11' + pole 6' = 173'

Fore mast 82' gives 38' to fore mast top while mizzen is 78' resulting in 34' to her mizzen top. As her fore mast totals 190' -44' = 146' deck to truck and her mizzen mast is 173' -44' = 129' deck to truck. 

I hope you find this helpful; if any of these calculations are wrong, feel free to correct them. 

FYI: only her fore and main mast are fished, meaning made masts. Her mizzen was a solid stick. Fore was 32.5" base and 29.5" at truss band, main was 33" base and 30" at truss band and mizzen was 26" base -3" would be 23" at truss band. 

 

Edited Saturday at 06:46 PM by ClipperFan
math corrections

[rwiederrich]

Thanks Rich for the calculations.  I already concluded the dimensions and made the temp masts to replicate them.  I know that only her fore and main were built as well.   It is how I am going to replicate them for this model.  
 

That is my next project. 
 

Again …..thanks. 
 

Rob

Edited Saturday at 07:26 PM by rwiederrich

[ClipperFan]

3 hours ago, rwiederrich said:

Thanks Rich for the calculations.  I already concluded the dimensions and made the temp masts to replicate them.  I know that only her fore and main were built as well.   It is how am I going to replicate them for this model.  
 

That is my next project. 
 

Again …..thanks. 
 

Rob

Rob, I try without trying to be trying.....

Edited Saturday at 06:24 PM by ClipperFan
correction

[rwiederrich]

Try as you may…..it’s the tried and true method of trying without trying , that makes all other attempts trivial.   I above all others will never shy away from a good ole fashioned attempt at trying.  
 

Rob

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

1 minute ago, rwiederrich said:

Try as you may…..it’s the tried and true method of trying without trying , that makes all other attempts trivial.   I above all others will never shy away from a good ole fashioned attempt at trying.  
 

Rob

  Said my Dad, "You'll never succeed until you try."  (Don Quixote, "To try, when your arms are to weary, to reach the unreachable star.")

[ClipperFan]

Then again, in the immortal words of Yoda, Jedi Master "There is no try, only do!"

[rwiederrich]

In like manner… there is another adage I particularly agree with……. That is……

”Quality is never an accident, it is the result of high intention, sincere effort, intelligent direction, and skillful execution. It represents the wise choice of many alternatives “.

 

Rob

[ClipperFan]

Stag Hound mast height differences:

fore mast: total 190', deck to truck 146', 20' less then main mast

main mast: total 210', deck to truck 166'

mizzen mast: total 173', deck to truck 129', 17' less then fore and 37' less then main.

 

[ClipperFan]

5 hours ago, Snug Harbor Johnny said:

  Said my Dad, "You'll never succeed until you try."  (Don Quixote, "To try, when your arms are to weary, to reach the unreachable star.")

One of my all time favorite show tunes. Thanks Johnny now I got that song stuck in my head.... 😉

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, rwiederrich said:

In like manner… there is another adage I particularly agree with……. That is……

”Quality is never an accident, it is the result of high intention, sincere effort, intelligent direction, and skillful execution. It represents the wise choice of many alternatives “.

 

Rob

Rob, that is some weighty mouthful. Who said it?

[rwiederrich]

2 hours ago, ClipperFan said:

Rob, that is some weighty mouthful. Who said it?

Not quite sure,  it was on a plaque I kept in my denture office.  
But it applies to model building……I’m sure. 

Rob

Edited yesterday at 03:12 AM by rwiederrich

[Snug Harbor Johnny]

I've heard that 'Practice makes perfect, but only with perfect practice.'  If you practice imperfectly, now and again you'll get it right or nearly right - whether a piece of music or just throwing darts at a dartboard.  That instance of very good (if not quite 'perfect') practice increases the chance of 'getting it right' (or nearly so) in the future.  Over time one will be ever closer to the mark most of the time.  Lay off any endeavor long enough, and you'll get 'rusty'.

 

[BANYAN]

On 9/12/2025 at 10:49 PM, rwiederrich said:

Clippers were a truly an American invention.

Hi Rob, enjoying the build log and the discussion.  However, I would debate that claim   Perhaps 'extreme clippers' but I believe clippers were the invention/development of the Scottish shipyards/builders, in particular Aberdeen.  

 

cheers

 

Pat

[ClipperFan]

1 hour ago, BANYAN said:

Hi Rob, enjoying the build log and the discussion.  However, I would debate that claim   Perhaps 'extreme clippers' but I believe clippers were the invention/development of the Scottish shipyards/builders, in particular Aberdeen.  

 

cheers

 

Pat

@BANYAN 1833 Ann McKim, Baltimore, MD, 143' 493 tons 3 masts was launched. She's considered America's first clipper. 1845 clipper Rainbow, 1846 clipper Sea Witch, 1849 clipper Oriental 183' 1003 tons was first American clipper to carry tea from China after the Navigation Laws were repealed. Aberdeen packet vessel Scottish Maid 89.25' 142 tons, 2 masted topsail schooner was launched in 1839, six years later then the first American clipper. Even the British acknowledge that for a decade Yankee clippers dominated the Chinese tea trade. Regardless, British clippers, as witnessed by the svelte tea clipper Cutty Sark were incredibly beautiful. Sadly the American Civil War was responsible for ending Yankee dominance.

 

Edited 17 hours ago by ClipperFan
Additional info

[Kenchington]

50 minutes ago, ClipperFan said:

the American Civil War was responsible for ending Yankee dominance

The transcontinental railroad was responsible for drawing the USA away from the sea. More exactly, opening the interior, with all of its opportunities for investment, was the draw, the railroad only the most prominent symbol. Sure, the War of Northern Aggression hastened the end but it would have come anyway. 

 

Shipping is inherently international and the British, paying less to their workers and hence with lower labour costs, could carry cargo to and from the USA more cheaply. Meanwhile, ships are their own advertisements, as they move from port to port. British shipyards, already more technically advanced as they had to cope without access to abundant timber, learnt from the Yankee clippers and produced more efficient (though slower) ships.

 

Most of us who build models care about ships as artifacts but merchant ships are, first and foremost, commercial investments. They were and are mostly about profit margins and returns to capital -- for all that the people most closely involved got excited about speed or size, while the tea trade became the greatest sailing race there has ever been or is ever likely to be.

 

Trevor

[Kenchington]

2 hours ago, BANYAN said:

I believe clippers were the invention/development of the Scottish shipyards/builders

Sorry, Banyan but, as @ClipperFan has documented, clipper ships were initially a North American development, as were the (Baltimore) clippers which preceded them.

 

The design concepts employed in the Baltimore clippers of circa 1810 had been discussed in Britain in the 1780s but it was US shipwrights who put them into practice in a major way and it is to the USA that we owe the term "clipper". It was also there that the clipper ship, the adaptation of clipper concepts to ship-sized hulls designed for sail, emerged -- even if their greatest designer, Donald McKay, was Nova Scotia-born and merely a "whitewashed Yankee".

 

Scottish yards certainly contributed their own, later developments, such as the Aberdeen bow, but they were later. If you want to claim a British lead, it might be in the big steamers, which had quite other reasons for fine lines but did precede most of the Yankee clippers.

 

Trevor

[rwiederrich]

There were far too many factors that led to the American clipper demise.  North American Transcontinental access via rail(which helped and hurt). The war of Southern oppression, indiscriminately altered American shipping (Leaving few for robust international competition) .

The Black Ball line of Liverpool purchased more American clippers that any other.  More speed and cargo capacity.  Economics(Shipping costs).  If it were not for the British insatiable demand for tea...the *Great Tea races* would have never found fruition.  so many factors....realized and otherwise,.... contributed to American clippers being lost to time.

I, however, have but one non American clipper in my fleet of clippers.  The little Cutty Sark. She shares the harbor with Sea Witch, Swordfish, Great Republic, Glory of the Seas, Staghound....oh and their little whaling friend C.W. Morgan.  Long live the American clipper......at my house!😍

 

Rob

[rwiederrich]

Back to business.

In my constant research, I have discovered(many years ago) that the double tie lift/halyards found on clipper models such as Flying fish and Flying Cloud's topsail yards...is in all practical purposes incorrect.

They depict the tie on both sides of the top trestle tree as connected to the gin block found on the crane just top of the yard lift band.  This arrangement, will not permit the necessary Parral lift wire to work at lifting the parral along with the yard evenly.  Here is a picture of the said published design.  Note that both ends of the tie end in haulyard purchases on opposite sides of the hull....along the channels.

Here is another picture of the proper arrangement for a parrel left wire to attach to the tie and even lift the parrel and yard evenly....to prevent binding.    Lastly, note the actual cable lift on this image that afixes to the parral from the chain tie lift.