Starting in Rhino 8

[GioMun]

Hello!

 

I´m quite new in this section, so please be patient. 😌

 

I´m at the moment trying to start the art of 3d modeling our models in Rhino. Just as a form to understand the models that sometimes don´t have a good plan/drawing, and you have to take care of that (i hope you understand).

The problem is that i don´t know how to start. I have found a few tutorials on the web, but i´m having problems with generating surfaces ,curves, so, i´m still at the beginning!! 

 

I see those pencil-like drawings that some of you make and i hope to achieve that some day! It reminds me when i started on this hobby at all.

 

My question is that is there any tutorial, made for shipmodelers, that would allow, eventually to achieve those drawings i was talking about?

 

Thank you very much!!

 

Greetings.

 

Giorgio

[scrubbyj427]

You should follow all the Rhino tutorials until you are proficient with basic surface modeling and 3D construction, From there you can start constructing basic 2D plans into a wire frame 3D object. 

[GioMun]

Thank you for the answer.

 

Yes, that is what i´m trying to do right now. I´m looking at every YouTube tutorial i can find.

 

I know that is the way!

 

I was asking if there where any more specialized tutorial out there.

 

Thank you.

 

 

[scrubbyj427]

Draping surfaces, constructing basic shapes and learning the tool functions will lead you right into modeling ships.

 

Theres likely some marine focused ones. I’m also sure there’s plenty here on MSW. Lots of people are 3D modeling ships on here.

[sheepsail]

I have had positive results with DELFTShip.   There are some great tutorials on that as well.

 

Finding out if everything is not absolutely aligned, the surfaces can track wildly since the curve control points are not linear.  The farther one is away from the tangent the wider the swing.  When done in a traditional 3D solid modeling surfacing program can lead to lumpy patterns.  For most of this modeling the fewer control points the better.  So I have been going back and forth between the 2D drawings and DELFTShip.   Depending on the scale  single pixel on a low res scan can represent 1 to 3 inches or more on the model.    I think this process is called fairing. 

 

There is a lot of rinse and repeat when tracing over things.

 

DELFTShip can export STL.  Which can then be imported into the Solid modeling program.   It also comes with an online database of 100s of ship hulls.  These are interesting to look at to see where the control points are placed.    

 

The paid version can export IGES, which is probably overkill for the sort of simple modeling done.  Since we are not doing dynamic simulations.

 

[GioMun]

Thank you for the kind replies.

 

I´m collecting your advices in order to find a way to go on.

 

In the moment i am searching for tutorials, specially the ones focused on ships.

 

Thank you very much.

 

Giorgio

[GioMun]

Hello shipmates. 

 

So, this is as far as i could get by now. As you can see, i imported the shiplines from AutoCAD, and y pasted every station on the side view,

but i still can´t create the surfaces, unless the wales, wich i could manage to. 

 

I keep the fight!! I don´t know every time i try to generate the skin of the hull a problem pops up.

 

If any of you had experienced the same situation please tell me.

 

Thank you very much.

 

Greetings

[GioMun]

By the way this was the original tug i´m building.

 

 

[CDR_Ret]

Hi, Giorgio.

 

I'm with Julie on this topic. It's likely that someone proficient in Rhino would be able to eventually develop a nice hull, and then add on all the topside embellishments. However, trying to learn how to use a general-purpose 3D-CAD program like Rhino to create a hull comprised of surfaces varying in three dimensions, adhering to an existing set of basic plans, has proven to be challenging to a lot of folks attempting that.

 

DELFTship, on the other hand, is a for-the-purpose naval architectural program with built-in features, like the three standard hull form views (sheer, halfbreadth, and body plans), along with features like "intersection" lines to show stations, waterlines, buttock lines, and diagonals—that all help in hull faring process. This is almost always needed because classic vessels were constructed from hand-drawn plans, and these plans, especially if they were developed before the advent of CAD, tend to lead to lack of fidelity among the standard views. In addition, DELFTship provides surface analysis tools that enhance the faring process, like Gaussian surfaces, that visually reveal bumps in the hull surface as well as providing local curvature analyses. The program is primarily used for hydrostatic and hydrodynamic analyses, but the structural features work well for simply modeling at any scale.

 

One difficulty that most new DELFTship users have is what Julie mentioned—the surface mesh (called the control net) doesn't actually lie on a curved surface because of the mathematical way the program works, which is something you simply have to get used to.

 

I suggest that you take a look at some of the reconstruction projects here in the various forums that utilized DELFTship to see how it presents. Like most 3D modeling programs, it has its own steep learning curve, but once you become familiar with it, the results are directly useful for developing plans of a vessel hull.

 

Terry

Edited August 16 by CDR_Ret

[vaddoc]

My 2 c:

I do not think you need any specialised tutorials, just play with Rhino a bit more. There is a command to create surface, one to offset surfaces (for the thickness of planking) and another to unroll surfaces (sometimes useful). Use the command to fair lines but this needs care as it may move lines - useful also to progressively use as few points as possible for your curves. The lines need to touch for a surface to be created but lofting does not need to be perfect as the wood will correct lots of imperfections. Using fewer curves for surfaces is easier. The curves that do not play ball can later on be projected on to the surface - there is a command to project lines and points to a surface that is very useful.

 

To create the hull surface, you need to have defined the sheer (best created from two lines/views), the keel rabbet, sternpost and stem. To check for ripples and surface fairness there is the analyze surface command that contains surface analysis tools.

 

You can also import plans and lines, scale them appropriately and use them to trace lines and then position these to the 3D space.

 

I think you are almost there to be honest.

 

Best wishes

Vaddoc

[GioMun]

Thanks again for the kind words.

 

I´ll have a go on DELFTship too, these little projects are all about learning, so i will try it as soon as i can.

 

In the meantime i´ll keep playing with Rhino. I will post any progress on this project.

 

Thank you for the help!

 

Greetings

 

Giorgio

[Romanov]

ChatGPT powiedział:

I’ve been trying to design in Rhino for 15 years. I figured everything out on my own, but I still don’t know everything. Below is my 3D model, entirely drawn from scratch.

[GioMun]

Wowwww!!

 

That´s amazing, a great job, incredible. 

 

And now i can imagine the kind of work that it takes, and the headaches!! I can say that learning this, it takes as long as it takes learning to build a model in wood.

 

Very good work.

 

Greetings

 

Giorgio

[CCClarke]

Keep at it Giorgio!  There's lot of good advice in this thread.

 

As a beginning modeler, (even when you understand all of the basic tools) one of the hardest things to learn is where to begin.  For me, that was the hardest part, and it was very intimidating.

 

Like karate, you can learn to punch and kick, but combining variations of those moves is what gives you the confidence and ability to prevail in a real fight.  Modeling is very similar.  Too many tutorials focus on tools without showing how to combine them to create and modify more complex shapes.  Combining tools to make what you want is called workflow, and it comes to you over time and many, many dead ends.  The other quality needed to become proficient is the correct mindset.

 

Modeling isn't easy or everybody would be doing it.  The AI generative 3D modeling programs being shown online are a poor substitute for real-world modeling skills.  Once you learn to model, you have a skill that can never be taken away from you.

 

Nobody learns anything without making mistakes. Perseverance is a big part of learning the craft.  I've had times where I couldn't make a particular tool perform the way I thought it was supposed to.  Every tool has rules that must be learned and some of those rules aren't well-documented - if at all.  I spent three eight-hour days once, using the same tool over and over to learn what made it unable to continue, while the program gave me error messages that made no sense.  Every time I got it to work, I wrote down what made it fail.  I was surprised how many conditions could cause this and submitted a post online explaining how I made it work.  The many replies of thanks were astounding!  Many modelers had given up on that tool, limiting their ability to progress.  I had to break through that wall by chipping away at it, little by little and documenting everything.  The things I learned went into my workflow, and contributed to my ability to inspect the mesh for irregularities when using other tools, that I still use today.  I don't even think about it anymore, I just use those skills automatically the second something doesn't work and quickly solve the problem.

 

The learning never ends, which is another facet of modeling I enjoy - problem-solving, which really sums up what 3D modeling is, and I've been doing it almost daily for twenty years.

 

A lot of what you're starting out with in your examples is basic spline modeling to create hull curvatures.  A spline is nothing more than a curved line defined by how many points are in it.  Those points can be patched, (automatically or manually) to create polygons which becomes a "skin" as more polygons are added to the mesh.  Every model is composed of points, edges, and polygons.  Each modeling program manipulates them in similar ways using different tool names.

 

Personally, I would recommend modeling simple things around your house.  A salt-shaker can be made with a couple of basic modeling tools.  Those same tools can make a cannon or pedestal. 

 

Be realistic about your expectations to keep your progress moving forward - even if in tiny increments.

 

A ship's hull is more complex and can lead to great frustration or worse, giving up.  Start simple, (like making a table or the afore-mentioned salt shaker) to get the basics of creating and moving and aligning shapes before progressing to more complex shapes.  You will be surprised how quickly you begin to create a workflow that gives fast results. 

 

One of the first (physical tools) I invested in to help my modeling of simple objects was a set of inexpensive digital calipers.  It helped me to create the everyday things around me more accurately and proportionately.  Success builds enthusiasm, and enthusiasm is contagious!

 

Time how long it takes to make a simple object if you're following a tutorial.  Repeat the tutorial the next day.  The day after that, build the same object without the tutorial, until you have the workflow memorized.  Notice how fast you build it compared to the first time.  My modeling speed doubled every three months once I had the basics figured out.  Some of the tutorials took me hours to complete at first. 

 

Using the method I described allowed me to do in minutes what had taken hours in a very short period of time.  Timed modeling is an excellent way to measure your progress and keep you motivated.  When you have the basic tools memorized, (and more importantly, how to use them in combinations) move into spline modeling, which is a different style of modeling.  Like math, there are many ways to get the correct answer when modeling.  The best way is the one that works for you in the least amount of time achieving the shape you need.

 

Maintaining the correct mindset is the one tool not included with your software that ultimately determines your success. Everybody who invests the time to create beautiful models can relate to this philosophy.  All of them started knowing nothing.

 

I look forward to seeing your progress, even if it isn't ship-related.

 

CC

 

 

Edited Friday at 04:08 AM by CCClarke

[GioMun]

Hi CC!

 

Thank you for the advices, i totally agree with you.

 

Maybe i was a little too ambitius trying to start with a hull 🤭, i even fill a little embarrassed.

 

I will try with small and cotidian staff, like you said, and then, little by little i will go on.

 

So thank you, and i will keep in mind this.

 

Thanks again, preciate your help!

 

Have a good modelling time!

 

Arrivederci!

 

Giorgio

[CCClarke]

I have a feeling you're going to amaze me very soon Giorgio!

 

One common theme I read in posts throughout the modeling forums I visit are from people wishing they could model and others who tried and quit in frustration.  I was fortunate to attend a top-notch school that focused on modeling and animation with some of the best teachers from the television and film industry to share their experience.  I had been modeling for almost a year and my workflow, (really, my best-guest flow) was full of bad habits I had to unlearn immediately.

 

Every student there paid big bucks and all were motivated to get jobs in the industry.  I was by far, the oldest student in the school and a subject of much curiosity.  The majority of the students were teenagers or in their early twenties.  (I was 48, and my training was paid for by my company to help us make better presentations for high-dollar contract bids.)

 

We started with about 31 students the first day.  Two weeks later, there were 15.  A month later a few more had dropped.  I asked the Director of the school if this was normal and he said unfortunately, it was.

 

Every one of those students under-estimated the amount of work was involved to become proficient, both during and after school.  The homework load was pretty heavy and modeling things that take me minutes now, took hours then.  Living in a hotel without any distractions, I studied at least twelve hours a day.  On weekends, even more.  Our teacher emphasized the mindset I mentioned before.  Even though I was a dedicated student from previous experiences, I still hit a few obstacles and documented them to ask questions in class.  I still have that notebook and read it once a year.  This is another reason I emphasize writing everything down when starting out.  (I still do it now!)

 

A few simple things to model, (especially with digital calipers or a tape measure for large objects) are:

 

A Pair of Dice.  -A simple cube with cylinders arranged to form the "dots" subtracted from each side.  (The number of dots on opposing sides should equal seven.) 

 

A Desk: Entirely composed of square objects stretched and aligned to fit.

 

Your Kitchen:  The cabinets are usually nothing more than thin squares and rectangles.  The walls can be made from larger rectangles positioned accordingly or a single, six-sided box (reverse the polygons and remove the top and two outer polygons to create a diorama effect with no wall thickness) as another method.

 

A Flying Saucer! Create the exterior profile by making a single spline or group of points turned into a single polygon for the profile, then Spin, Revolve, or Lathe (a very common tool with different names in each app) with the flat side that makes up the middle on the Y axis @ the zero position.  The more sides you Spin, Revolve, or Lathe, the smoother your UFO will be.  The more points in the profile, the higher the polygon count. 

 

A Wine Glass or Goblet: Same workflow as the UFO.

 

Being able to use your tools to create these shapes is applicable when building a ship model.

 

If something I've written doesn't make sense or you need example screen shots to help illustrate my points, feel free to PM me and I'll describe in more detail how I do it.  Just tell me what program you're using, (Rhino?) and I'll try to get the tool names right for your application.

 

Chi non risica non rosica!

 

CC

 

 

[CDR_Ret]

Not to mention that you actually have a head on your shoulders . . . !

[sheepsail]

3 hours ago, CCClarke said:

I was fortunate to attend a top-notch school that focused on modeling and animation with some of the best teachers from the television and film industry to share their experience.

 

...

 

We started with about 31 students the first day.  Two weeks later, there were 15.  A month later a few more had dropped.  I asked the Director of the school if this was normal and he said unfortunately, it was.

 

I took classes myself.  Found though that there is a difference between Art and craft.   Industry usually wants craft.   Those who can turn the creativity on and off when the bell rings are the most successful.  It becomes about following the lead of others.   

 

The other frustration was the cost of tools.   I was trained in a popular tool.  Yet when working they simply wanted a typist, since the engineers did not want to type the parametric in the program.  Not the actual creativity.

 

I wound up spending 1000s on the program, and the company now wants me to subscribe and spend thousands more.   On the other hand If I really do need to use it I have the old program what works just as good.   For me it is about solving the problem with the tools at hand.

 

These days it is much better.  There is a lot of open source stuff.   I have a friend who is a top amusement park ride designer.   It is much as noted in the quote above.   He could take something like Google blocks and create amusement ride walk through with it.

 

We were chatting last year how we get to many questions as to what is the best program to learn.   So much of this is now open source.  Yet people want the 'Name.'  I guess to put onto the old resume.    I have been having a lot of fun with Delft Ship which is free,  And lightburn which is like 150 bucks.

 

Big packages like Renderman are free if one wants to spend the time learning.   I sort of ignored Rhino.   A simple free program called Art of illusion started the whole 3d printer craze.    

 

I did experiment with Fusion 360, but found one has to log into different machines wich makes it useless for taking into the shop.  Especially when they consider 2FA to the phone to be insecure.    Most of the big boys figure a designer will be working on a team.   Doing piecework.  So the design programs which are front ends to databases (now cloud based) really are set up to have a single project or sub project open at any given time.

 

Still the cutting edge stuff is out there.   Much of it is so far past the edge of the cut the heads are way off the shoulders as noted.     

 

The problem with the schools is that by the time it becomes in style there are too many in the class and the market is saturated with those who can draw a circle in postscript.    

 

Saw a lament by another friend who is a 2D hand drawn animation instructor, that the kids just want to learn the prompts to make their work look old skool.

 

-julie (who likes procrastinating on working on her Forester model today.)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tmj]

14 minutes ago, sheepsail said:

I did experiment with Fusion 360

I've been using Autodesk products since the days of DOS. I love AutoCAD, however. Fusion befuddles me. It's not very intuitive at all, it requires three times the work that 3D in Acad requires, and I find it just plain awkward and 'clunky'. Some folks really like it and produce great results with Fusion. I'm not one of those folks!

[sheepsail]

AutoCad and Solid Works were pretty much perfect.   But young people can not sell perfection.

 

 

[CCClarke]

15 hours ago, sheepsail said:

 

"I took classes myself.  Found though that there is a difference between Art and craft.   Industry usually wants craft.   Those who can turn the creativity on and off when the bell rings are the most successful.  It becomes about following the lead of others."  

 

 

I must have been lucky.  The design engineers using SolidWorks where we worked were very good at what they did, but were not artistic.  Their renders for presentation packages were basically different colors to identify different parts within an assembly. These types of graphics are common, and we wanted to stand out from our competitors.   

 

Once I got my CG footing, I converted our inhouse models, (or used technical drawings to model when conversion was too time-consuming to meet a deadline) into photo-realistic renders.  The reaction of the customers to our enhanced presentations was immediate and positive, which gave me a niche that turned a collateral duty into a full-time gig.  Everybody won.  After that, I started adding graphics to training and documentation packages.  This was especially helpful when the hardware was very small or might require a "God's eye" view from a distance.  Occasionally, a customer would call with a specific request for one of their presentations, and that became another capability we capitalized on. On more than one occasion, other companies would ask for some of my models, or request me to travel to their facility to collaborate on a shared contract with their graphics people.

 

I never ran out of work.

 

Even after transferring to the East coast to another part of the company, my old management asked to "borrow" me.  Those requests were flatly refused, since my other skills in high-reliability, precision assembly and QA were more valuable and we were always shot-handed.  I still did graphics work for the Director when an important presentation was looming. 

 

It was very enjoyable having acquired a lot of useful training and certifications during my career, many of which I apply to ship modeling while retired.

15 hours ago, sheepsail said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited yesterday at 02:54 PM by CCClarke