Rigging scale for 1/85 Frigate

[DDoan]

I am a beginner modeler working on my 2nd build. The vessel I am working on is the Occre Nuestra Senora De Las Mercedes 1/85 scale Frigate. I'd like to make improvements to the kit and i need some advice. 

 

The main thing I would like to replace out of the kit is the rigging. I'm looking at some scale ropes. There are tons of options for sizes so I was hoping someone could give me some insight to what size scale ropes i should use for  the standing rigging. 

 

I found a site with a calculator but I also wanted to make sure it's a reliable source. 

https://feed.hismodel.com/rigging_app/

 

Any help is appreciated! 

[palmerit]

I know nothing about that calculator. I would need to have way more experience building model ships to be able to do a whole-scale replacement of rigging without either using a kit or another source to start.

 

Assuming the kit does not tell you how thick their rope is: A trick I learned here is to wrap the original rope 10 times around a dowel, snugging the rope wrappings together, then measuring the thickness of the 10 wrappings with calipers and dividing by 10 (do it a few times and take the average). That gives you the diameter of the rope you need to order - you'll never find an exact match, so pick something close. There were times when I had two ropes with two different thicknesses that were closest to the same thickness of the rope to order and I just ordered two ropes one step in diameter apart.

 

Some people find other sources to replace the rigging. Some kits might come with 2-3 different thicknesses of rope - I remember seeing someone post that a kit of a fairly large ship inexplicably had only a single thickness of rope - where the actual ship might have had a dozen different thicknesses of rope or more. It definitely makes a difference in the final result having a variety of different thicknesses of rope. I recently saw some posts on a ship modeling Facebook group with someone doing ratlines from a kit that had one thickness of white rope with shrouds and ratlines the same thickness of fuzzy rope (they said they were going to dye the rope when they were done). 

 

The rope from Syren is excellent. As are their blocks and thimbles and other pieces. So many kit-supplied ropes are fuzz monsters. Syren's is perfectly clean and lays naturally. Vanguard's ropes are nice, not nearly as nice as Syren. Model Shipways' and Midwest's ropes are okay but are not so great. I've seen posts from other kits that seem far worse than either.

 

It certainly adds to the cost, which is why kit manufacturers do not generally supply rope (or blocks etc.) of ultra-high quality. Easy to spend $100+ on a several packs of rope, blocks, deadeyes, thimbles, belaying pins to replace what's supplied in a kit (though you'll likely have left-overs for the next kit). I bought several plastic organizers to store (and organize) all the rope and blocks I have (that I bought and that were left over from other kits). Vanguard has sometimes had a Master Shipwright version of one of their models that is around $175 more than the regular kit that includes better blocks (I think the rope was the same).

[palmerit]

This is from a post I made on my Chesapeake Bay Crabbing Skiff build log. Left is the kit-supplied rope (Midwest Models). Right is rope from Syren.

[Gregory]

Great info from @palmerit

 

Not much to add, but it looks like the calculator at HiSModel is based on figures from the Mondfeld book Historic Ship Models which I would consider reliable for model building.

 

I would not worry  about getting a perfect scale match for all the ropes  and blocks you find on a ship.   Just a few different sizes to get a balanced look that is not out of scale by a large amount.

Many kits have blocks that are too big in the higher rigging, where the rope and the blocks should be smaller.

 

 

Another  good source of scale rope is MSW Sponsor Ropes of Scale.  It appears they have 17 different sizes of rope.

I doubt you would find more than six or so sizes that would fall within the range of your 1:85 model.   

 

Look at the models here, and the images of contemporary models, and try to get  a look for your model that looks balanced and proportional. 

 

 

[Dr PR]

DD,

 

I too recommend zu Mondfeld's Historic Ship Models as a good first reference. It discusses vessels from all periods and all western nationalities.

 

The key thing to remember about the ropes in a ship's rigging is that they usually were scaled from the main mast diameter at deck level. Generally the same scales were used on all vessels. However, the rope sizes are calculated in circumference. This almost always confuses beginners (it did me)!

 

For example, for hemp rope the main stay may be listed as half the diameter of the main mast. If the mast is two feet diameter (24 inches) the stay dimension will be about 12 inches. This would be a huge rope, if it was the same diameter as the mast. But it is the circumference of the rope that is the same length as half the diameter of the mast. To get the actual diameter of the rope divide the rope circumference by pi (3.14159). So 12/pi = 3.8 inch diameter.

 

Then all other ropes are scaled from the main stay. But the scaling may vary with the date. So if the main stay is 3.8 inch diameter the shrouds would be the same diameter (100%) in the 19th century, but only 62% of the main stay (2.4 inch diameter) in the 18th century.

 

Mondfeld's rigging size tables shorten calculations a bit by calculating the main stay dimension as the mast diameter multiplied by pi/2, or about 0.166 times the mast diameter. This is about the same as dividing by 2, and then dividing by pi.

 

Other authors give calculations that may differ a bit from Mondfeld, but the results are about the same. When scaling down to the model's scale these small differences  don't matter - you will have to choose the closest scale rigging to the ideal dimensions.

 

Mondfeld cautions that the scales may vary a bit with nationality, but his tables are a good place to start. And for later 19th century and 20th century ships with steel wire rigging the dimensions should be reduced about 33% from the calculated dimension for hemp.

 

You are starting down a deep rabbit hole!

Edited yesterday at 06:27 AM by Dr PR

[Gregory]

11 hours ago, Dr PR said:

Mondfeld's rigging size tables shorten calculations a bit by calculating the main stay dimension as the mast diameter multiplied by pi/2, or about 0.166 times the mast diameter.

Just to be a little warned, unless it has been corrected in other printings, in the book it says " .166 % ", which will not yield good numbers at all.  

 

As I said, I think the calculator at HIS Model which uses the .166 (1/6) of main mast diameter at the deck,  will yield good numbers.

 

 

[amateur]

There is also a usefull excell in the ‘Articles database’ of this forum.

(scroll down to the ‘rigging’ part of the list, although there is interesting stuff in the other sections).

 

the exact thickness is one part , but what also matters is ‘relative thickness’:  I tooksome of my rigging slightly over scale, as the thinnest lines available to me were slighltly over scale. Taking the lines next to them to scale resulted in too little difference in thickness. And there isno need to have 15 or so thicknesses: four or five will also give a better result than the two-will-suffice from your kit.

 

And as said: pay attention to the size of the blocks: in real life the size of the hole is equal to the thickness of the ropes, leading to smaller blocks for thinner ropes. Here also: ypu can go flat out with very beatiful and very exensive ones, but three or four sizes can bring you a whole lot further than the kit-provided ones.

 

Jan

Edited 15 hours ago by amateur